Christian Martial Arts Union

[JDK]

I disagree. I think they blend perfectly, if you cast aside the meaning of martial arts. When I was in high school, the Power Team came to my school. It was basically 4 or 5 steroid junkies running around to these different stations on the basketball court. They'd break a stack of bricks and shout something like "This is the power of Christ!" Then they'd run over and bend a steel pole: "This is what Jesus could do!" Then they'd lay down on a bed of nails (ironic) and get pounded by a sledgehammer, which would break the bricks on their stomach.

I am sorry you had to witness such nonsense , using the name of Christ to promote it. I know they had good intentions...but it was misdirected and bad for the name of Christ.

I agree with you Wookie......THAT was not Martial Arts nor Christianity.

If Jesus had been an iron palm master, that whole crucifixion thing might have turned out differently.

Jesus commanded the wind and Seas to be still....and they obeyed.
He opend blind eyes, unstopped deaf ears..made the Lame to walk, healed the Leper and rose people from the Dead.( like Lazuras)

Then in the First Century his disciples did the [u]same things and were recorded by spies from Ceasar and various writers and Scribes....many who were not believers.

He Also rose from the dead for all to see.

I'll take that over an Iron Palm Master any day~

God bless

JDK

[David Jamieson]

so how would martial arts demonstrations be different?

what would you demonstrate that aligns christianity with martial arts? and, how would it demonstrate that?

[JDK]

No BS.....I cannot answer that question.

I am conflicted because of my love of the Arts since my teenage years...and my faith in Jesus.

I am hoping to find a way to practice...without involving the spiritual aspects that so many of the Traditional Arts bring with them.

I am trying to work it out ....hoping that posting here would give me some ideas.

JDK

[Samurai Jack]

You are conflicted because satan has already cast doubts into your heart. You yourself identified the occult influences in the martial arts. What more proof do you need that the practice is evil?

The truth is, that if you want to be a follower of Christ, you must follow his teachings:

"Carry neither purse, nor script, nor shoes, and salute no man by the way."
Luke 10:4

In other words, live in poverty. Wear no shoes, carry no bible, and vow allegience to no man. Why don't you do that?

[David Jamieson]

Just read the gospels. You'll find the answers to your conundrum right there.

You cannot practice harming others, to harm others, with the intention required to bring harm to others, especially your enemies and still claim to be christian and to say you have "faith" in jesus and still make with these practices is contrary.

They are not compatible belief systems. It has nothing to do with the occult part, it has to do with learning to harm others physically which in the christian sense is not OK at all, especially your enemies who you should love even more and sek to bring no harm to.

I don't know what the conflict is, just put down that thing that brings conflict, or pick it up and leave the other. You can't have both, it is very simple.

[cjurakpt]

God-people are funny; but not so funny that if they all dissapeared tommorrow I'd miss them...

IMO, the ostritch should be the international symbol for religion, seeing as sticking your head in the sand with your a$$ in the air is about the functional equivalent of worshiping "God"

now, I'm sure some will take offense at this - but what I don't understand is, if you believe that you are under the care of the one true God (whichever one that may be ), then why would you care at all what I say? if I blaspheme your "God", who you believe to be the all-powerful grand high muckaty-muck, why should he/she/it or you care a whit about little nothing me? I mean, aren't I going to be the one who pays for it in the long run?

BTW, I do believe very strongly in the rights of anyone to believe and practice anything they want, without being persecuted or discrimanated against in any material way; this does not preclude the rights of others to publically say that any particular belief is wrong or silly - just as long as it doesn't impede the right of practice: so in other words, if you want to stand out on the street and proclaim that I should repent and find redemption in Jesus and that only by believing in him will I be saved, then I should have the right to preach atheism and point out the inherent silliness of God-belief with the same tolerance shown to me as is being shown to you...

[Shaolin Wookie]

you disagree because you are choosing to interpret what is said in the gosp[els.

ah, if only so called christians would take the time to actually ready the new testament, man would that ever make a difference.

here's how it is.

the tenets of christianity do not support the practice and sustinance of a martial arts approach to life.

In fact, the belief of christianity is contrary to everything that is truly in the path of martial discovery.

you can be a good person and practice martial arts, but when you think of bringing pain to anyone, you are being unchristian in a big way. when you cause harm to another, especially your enemies, you go against the words of jesus christ.

Good point, but missed mine by a mile.

What I mean to say is this: The reason I left that religion is it didn't make any sense in any kind of way--intellectual, historically, philosophically, ontologically, empirically, epistemologically (we're all born atheists, anyway). It had an ultra-violent history, yet still claims that it's pacifistic. If you give me both Mother Theresa and the Inquisition....I'm going to think twice. Mother Theresa was kind, for sure, and she touched so many lives. But the Inquisition lasted two or three centuries, stomped on scientific progress, and touched/ended so many lives........so many more lives than Mother Theresa.

Religion does more harm than good, in most cases. And it takes credit for the kindness espoused by Western European societies. Ironically. That's all due to Democracy, not Christianity......and no, our founding fathers weren't "good christian" folk. They were deists, and often treated standardized religion to extreme abuse a la the Enlightenment. If you don't believe me, study Thomas Jefferson's views on religion.....a la his letters. If you still don't believe me, read some Thomas Paine. But I digress........relgion, especially Christianity, has a very long history of violence. Only in the past 100 years have they calmed down, mostly b/c our Democracies won't tolerate their fanaticism. Hence, Democracy has made religion kinder....in practice if not in their views.

But as we've seen of late, even Democracies can get hijacked for terrible odds and ends......IRAQ.......

Difference is, I'd never say that Democracy was foolproof and pacific. I'd only say it is better than the alternatives.

But yeah....even Shaolin had a different view of pacifism than Christians. Christians can't generate violence or think of it without sinning. To a Shaolin, if he stops you from hurting him or someone else, he's stopping the violence before it has a chance to manifest, thereby negating it. I'd say that's why it was valid for the former, but inaccessible to Christians--in theory.

But that whole walking on water thing still has me stumped. If God made the earth and the seas, why would he think that walking on water would be soooooo impressive?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Who knows, though?

Jesus might have been a bad muthatrucka! One of his disciples drew his sword and cut off the High Priest's servant's right ear when the legion came to arrest him at the garden.

Jesus was like: "Stand back, dude. I got this."

[kal]

Just read the gospels. You'll find the answers to your conundrum right there.

You cannot practice harming others, to harm others, with the intention required to bring harm to others, especially your enemies and still claim to be christian and to say you have "faith" in jesus and still make with these practices is contrary.

.

Hold on, don't Christian countries like Italy have an army? How do they train their military without losing their Christianity?

And what about the Swiss Gurad who protect the Vatican? How do they do their training?

And doesn't the Pope have bodyguards or people who protect him? Or does he go out in public unguarded? How do his protectors train to protect him while still being Christians?

[Shaolin Wookie]

so in other words, if you want to stand out on the street and proclaim that I should repent and find redemption in Jesus and that only by believing in him will I be saved, then I should have the right to preach atheism and point out the inherent silliness of God-belief with the same tolerance shown to me as is being shown to you...

You do have that right, but wouldn't you feel silly?

Most atheists I've ever met were extremely kind and gentle. The more vocal ones were rather unlikable....and I often thought that they expressed themselves in very shallow terms, and treated people rather rudely (like evangelical Christians do--that is, as possible-Christians/possible customers......very utilitarian).

Ce la vie.

Atheism is a personal choice. Religion is often a group one--if only simply because you're joining a group, sect, or heavenly contingent. You're joining God's gang....


But remember. You had to be taught Christianity in order to believe. You're going to die the way you came into the world--by chance. And yet, we're all atheists by birth......hmmmmm

[Shaolin Wookie]

And doesn't the Pope have bodyguards or people who protect him? Or does he go out in public unguarded? How do his protectors train to protect him while still being Christians?

The pope rides around in the popemobile--a little golf cart with a bulletproof cage.

Funny, Christians believe in divine intervention, but Popes ride around in bulletproof golf-carts b/c they know a bullet moves really quick, and Jesus might be napping.

So much for the peace that passes all understanding.....

[David Jamieson]

Hold on, don't Christian countries like Italy have an army? How do they train their military without losing their Christianity?

And what about the Swiss Gurad who protect the Vatican? How do they do their training?

And doesn't the Pope have bodyguards or people who protect him? Or does he go out in public unguarded? How do his protectors train to protect him while still being Christians?

You are beginning to understand how people corrupt the message of christianity.
They corrupt it through their desire.

Countries have armies to make war. They have them because they are fearful or because they use them to take what they want.

I will reiterate, these things are corruptions brought about by convenience of interpretation.

If you take the gospel for it's teachings, then you will know that the christian spirituality is not a part of the affairs of the world.


render unto caesar what is caesars, IE: pay your taxes and kowtow to the man because he will bring you harm if you do not. Caesar and his machinations are unchristian and to be preoccupied with those things is unchristian.

ergo, anyone who trains an army cannot call themself christian even if they do call themself christian they are not and are heaping a lie upon another lie.

a spade is a spade like a rose is a rose. you cannot do harm and call yourself good, it is simple. You cannot cloak yourself in riches and call yoruself observant of christ, it is contrary.

most of what is presented is a lie.

if one were truthful, they would be that outwardly and inwardly and not try to tie themselves to one thing or another in order to satisfy their needs to satisfy their desires.

these corruptions are always going to be present so long as their are human beings that desire power. plain and simple. anyway, no, you can't order an army to kill and call yourself a christian, you are not christian if you do this.

If you raise your hand to harm another human, even your enemyu, then you are not christian.

If you defend yourself and avcoid doing harm to another in the doing of that, then you can call yourself a christian.

the golden rule is the golden rule period.

i think it's very clear, I don't understand all the capitulation and lying to oneself.

you either are, or you are not. period.

[cjurakpt]

You do have that right, but wouldn't you feel silly?

absolutely - so you get my point - that is, stnading on the street corner proclaiming anything is, in my perspective, silly - so when I see the Bible thumpers doing their morning rounds, or the militant Islamists doing their thing, I see it as silly as if I were to go door to door pushing non-belief...

Most atheists I've ever met were extremely kind and gentle. The more vocal ones were rather unlikable....and I often thought that they expressed themselves in very shallow terms, and treated people rather rudely (like evangelical Christians do--that is, as possible-Christians/possible customers......very utilitarian).Ce la vie.

I hope that I am kind and gentle - i certainly am not particularly vocal about my (non)-belief (99% of the people I know / interract with regularly do not know this); I certainly am not out to convert any one: you can't reason with emotional choices, and if they choose it within themselves, no need - of course, I would certainly support someone who has made that choice, but that's not a common thing

Atheism is a personal choice. Religion is often a group one--if only simply because you're joining a group, sect, or heavenly contingent. You're joining God's gang....

when life on earth sucks (such as in poverty or war striken areas), it's logical for people to a) bond together; b) look for something beyond the world that justifies their suffering here;

But remember. You had to be taught Christianity in order to believe. You're going to die the way you came into the world--by chance. And yet, we're all atheists by birth......hmmmmm

in a way, I see atheism as returning to that natural state of "not knowing", of being ok without having any definitive "answers", which then allows you to start acting in the moment, dealing with things such as they are rather than how you think God wants them; as you correctly point out, we are born atheists, and so to return to that is to often unlearn all the doctrine, dogma and associated guilt and realizing that which makes us uniquely human - the ability to see things clearly as they are, to realize that, yes, "this" is all that there is, no man hiding behind the curtain so to speak - this is what I think frightens God-folk: that what you see IS what you get, no special rewards after death, no hidden messages, etc.; also, no justification to act in certain ways - the reality that morality is relative, situational and that it's much harder to decide to act like a decent human being when all the responsibility is up to you to figure out what that means, rather than reading a book some dead guys wrote as a guide to how to live appropriately

[FuXnDajenariht]

the funny thing to me is that most religion doesn't really even give a satisfying explaination for suffering. they say "oh it was just God's will."

really? is that supposed to pacify me, and make me feel better. lol well no offense but wouldn't that make God kind of a douchebag? i'd rather you say that its all left to chance.

[Shaolin Wookie]

To JDK:

This is going to be a hard thing to swallow, but maybe it will be beneficial to you. I don't think every religion is good for everyone. I don't think every activity/passion/hobby is all-encompassing. People are different by make-up, genetics, race, tradition, etc. Relgion ignores these differences, and often tries to change them.....but they're things to be celebrated, not ignored.

What you need to do is keep your religion personal and somewhat contained. Martial Arts are a fantastic way to explore physical coordination, cardiovascular health, mental focus, and other things as well--regardless of religion. But I wouldn't use my martial arts to sell something unrelated to MA....it's like prostitution.....just like you wouldn't use Christianity to sell a used car.

Let's remember....not every MA is a buddhist, taoist, or confucianist.....there's something for everyone to galvanize. MA's are just more compatible with those listed above than with something like Christianity.

But take a lesson from Christ himself: when that Jewish kegger was in full effect, and all the wine was gone by the middle of the party, Christ didn't take the time to interrupt the celebration and preach on the vicissitudes of revelry.....in fact, he got hte party swinging again by giving the folks some more wine.

Christianity does not have to domineer everything in your life, every activity, situation, or every person you come into contact with. It just has to make you a better Christian.

But then again, I'm an atheistic Buddhist/Taoist (which are supposedly mutually incompatable)......so maybe I'm just full of misinformation.