Lai Ng Sam

Read that Lai Ng Sam was a student of the late Chiu Kau and that both Chiu Wai and Chiu Chi Ling claim this to be the truth.
Then what about his alleged claim of teaching Tit Kiu Sam's old style Hung Gar? There is a group that shows a lineage that according to my knowledge shows too much gaps as well as it is too fantastic to be possibly true.

What could be the reason of creating such a 'cyberspace' lineage?

Where did you get this information from if i may ask?

Not trying to be to cynical here, there are a great many people these days claiming weird lineages. Some of these range from Tit Kiu Sam all the way to obscure village hung styles, but when you look at them, they are just modifications of the modern hung gar passed down from Wong Fei Hung. It seems these people cant be proud about what they have, so they have to put a certain spin on it to make it look more unique (and most likely marketable).

Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Peace to you Hung Gar Bro.

Part of it you can read on the "Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen" Website of Weito.
I heard it first hand from Chiu Chi Ling and also from others, that Lai Ng Sam was a student of Chiu Kau.
Probably you are right when you state 'that these people can't be proud about what they have, so they have to put a certain spin on it to make it look more unique'.
I know that this Weito 'sect' is practising two types of Hung Gar: old style and new style. The new style being Wong Fei Hong Hung Gar, and exactly the same as Chiu Family Hung Gar.
Problem is, who made up this story about the old style Hung Gar. Was it Lai Ng Sam himself or some of his disciples after he had died (in 1995).

Maybe some more people can shed some light on this subject.

nope, never heard that before. Hopefully someone will know

Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Lai Ng Sam taught Hungga and Siulam style. He never spoke about old Hungga himself.
Actually his style is a mix of Hungga and Siulam.
Teh main forms indeed are almost the same as the Chiu family performs them. Some weapons are the same too.
Other forms which the Weito sect likes to call old Hungga are more mix of parts Hungga forms, parts of Siulam.

Also LAi Ng Sam did not speak English at all, and Geoff Hasbrouck, the teacher of Evert van der Meulen, did not speak English at all.
So there's no way that Lai Ng Sam could have told them all the great stories. They made up most of it.

Exept one thing: the lineage. LAi Ng Sam wasn't allowed to teach Hungga and say he as a student of Chiu Kao (concurrence agreement). Tehrefore he taught for free at Victoria Park and just said he was from Tit Kiu Sam lineage.
From 1985-1995 the Weito sect told Lai Ng Sam was a second generation (Tit Kiu Sam - Ng Hee Kwan - LAi Ng Sam). After the dead of Lai Ng Sam it became TKS - NHK - Hang Yat Siu - Lai Ng Sam.

I'm from the LAi Ng Sam lineage that uses Chiu Kao as their si dai gung. Our school did not believe it form the beginning. We accepted that Lai Ng SAm just did not want to tell the turth. We also knew the gap was way to big and that our sets looked a lot like the Chiu famliy Hungga.
In 1997 Chiu Chi Ling was invited and at then we did find out the truth. Since then we use the Chiu Kao lineage.

The Weito sect however did not agree and called us and Chiu Chi Ling liars.

Now I went to Hong Kong myself just a few weeks ago and compared my HUngga htere to that of Chiu Wai's old students and to Lam family Hungga.
It was clear to me that LAi NgSam did learn from Chiu KAo and that hois other forms are mix of Hungga with otrher styles. It certainly isn't old HUngga.

If anyone has more questions about the matter, just post tehm or feel free to contact me.

Must admit you're pretty well informed Patrick!
Do you know what students Lai Ng Sam thaught his version of Hung Gar during his lifetime?

Regards.

You probably mean Lai Ng Sam talking only Chinese and his student Geoff only American English!
So how could they have such a detailed 'history'. Was it translated?

I'm just wondering who made up these legendary stories.

South Paw,

Indeed, my sigung only Cantonese and Geoff only Amercan English.
Now the daughter of Lai Ng Sam spoke a little English and once in a while she tranlated somethings when Geoff was at their home.
However considering the fact that Geoff can't write/read (at least that's what I've been told), he could never have remebrered that much detailled stories.
So I know Lai Ng Sam himself said he was from Tik Kiu Sam lineage, but all the other "detailled" stories are just made up by Evert van der Meulen.


LAi Ng Sam had many students. First he taught at the YMCA and the JApanese embassy. (at least that's written in Evert's old studies).
Later he only taught a few private students for free at Victoria Park. One of them has moved to Canada; his nickname was " Benny".
Secondly there were some more Chinese students, which names I do not know.
However I once found an article on one of the very old students of LNS, named Cham Kam Shu. He was a teacher at the ChingMo Association of HongKong.

Then there are two other students. Geoff and Klaas Padberg.
Actualluy Evert first was a student of Klaas. Together they went to HK in 1980, where they met Geoff and LAi Ng Sam. Klaas returned several times and learned Hung gar from Lai Ng Sam.
In 1985 Geoff came to the Netherlands where he stayed about one year. At that time Evert became the student of Geoff.

LAter (1993) Klaas opened a new Hung Gar school (after he had moved in 1989 to Ermelo NL and had only opened a Kempo school). Evert then helped Klaas. After Evert then suddnely insisted Klaas would put his name under Evert in the lineage war broke out. Also Chiu Chi Ling came to the school of Klaas and told us the "truth". Evert didn't like this at all and since then it's been trouble between teh two schools.

Well that's the most detailled you can get. Hope I've answered all your questions. If not, post again or contact me at info@hungga.net

Hi,

I wonder where "Paul Skrypichayko" is in all of this? Why hasn't he chimmed in? Just Curious.

About a year ago he said that I could "Save Face" and ask Chu Wai Si Gung if Lai Ng Sam taught the Chu family Dit Da. He also said that they were:
1st Body builders
2nd Dit Da businessmen
3rdly Gung Fu men
Of course his tone was insulting and he was unapologetic.

Do you Patrick have any extra info on this. I have my own source(from the horses mouth). I'm just curious if you have any bonus information.
thx you man

Anyway I want to commend you Patrick Chiu for your honest answers to these questions. I commend you even more because you have spoken to ACTUAL people and got their take on this info. I mean, it's not as if you got your info from just a magazine.

Patrick wrote: "I'm from the LAi Ng Sam lineage that uses Chiu Kao as their si dai gung. Our school did not believe it form the beginning. We accepted that Lai Ng SAm just did not want to tell the turth. We also knew the gap was way to big and that our sets looked a lot like the Chiu famliy Hungga. In 1997 Chiu Chi Ling was invited and at then we did find out the truth. Since then we use the Chiu Kao lineage."

I will also say this, I've seen 1st hand that Chiu Chi Ling is talented. I spent a day w/ him and his school in Oakland. Some people say he does "Showy, Flashy Hung Gar" when he is in front of cameras. But I've seen him behind the scenes w/ his students looking in top form and apply his techniques while horsing aroung w/ his students.

I guess you could say that he is talented enough to hide what he knows to outsiders and also kick arse and use his stuff. Bravo to him!

ease on,
Onassis

Paul Skrypichyako chiming in on cue. Sorry, been busy lately, not much time to read and type here.
=)

I've heard a few different opinions on this Chiu Kao vs Lai Ng Sam debate. I do not know enough about the relationships between the two, so I will only comment on what I know, or what seems to make the most sense. My mind will be made up when I see how both camps train/fight/perform. That's not one of my top priorities, so don't count on any feedback soon.

Subitai, what do I have to apologize about? Did I hurt your feelings? Did I offend you?

I don't think I've said anything bad about Chiu Wei, I just said you should get him to tell you what you wanted to know. I actually look up to him, and have heard good things about him and his father from my master.

Well 1st i should stick to the thread. Just wondering if anywone else had info on this?

2nd
Paul wrote:
"Subitai, what do I have to apologize about? Did I hurt your feelings? Did I offend you?

I don't think I've said anything bad about Chiu Wei, I just said you should get him to tell you what you wanted to know. I actually look up to him, and have heard good things about him and his father from my master."

"O" = No, what you did was insult the Chiu family. Your candor is unbelievable. YOU didn't jusy "say that we should ask him". I remember very clearly, YOU said that we should "Allow our Si Gung to SAVE FACE" by asking him in private.

And then your candor when saying that they were the 3 things that I posted above was in a negative tone. YOU can't just dismiss that.

And then when my brother gives you 1st person knowledge from Chu Si Gung, you spout off hearsay and stuff that you admitedly got from a magazine AND TELL US TO SAVE FACE.

Furthermore, the topic was about something else in HG that my Brother Ha Say Fu and I were discussing in a friendly way w/ others as usual untill you came in. I understand it's your prerogotive, but you started it.

geez louise
"O"

From what I have learned, the Chiu's were known for their bodybuilding, their dit da medicine, and finally their martial arts.

I dont recall reading or typing any information from a magazine. Chiu Wei has had advertisements and articles in our local Chinese newspapers, could that be what you are referring to?

Subitai wrote:
Furthermore, the topic was about something else in HG that my Brother Ha Say Fu and I were discussing in a friendly way w/ others as usual untill you came in. I understand it's your prerogotive, but you started it.

Boo hoo... I started it... What's next? Are you going to tell me which topics I can and cannot participate in? Grow up man, nothing on here is personal

Subitai wrote: 'I will also say this, I've seen 1st hand that Chiu Chi Ling is talented. I spent a day w/ him and his school in Oakland. Some people say he does "Showy, Flashy Hung Gar" when he is in front of cameras. But I've seen him behind the scenes w/ his students looking in top form and apply his techniques while horsing aroung w/ his students.'

You are right about that. I have seen him perform many times. For the cameras he is just (or just plays) the moviestar Chiu Chi Ling. But he is still in top form for his age (57), learning his students the traditional way, and he is very inventive & creative too.
A man with two faces, eager to be in the spotlight to promote himself and his Hung Gar, and on the other the sifu that is willing to share his fast knowledge with students.

Chiu Chi Ling inherited the school in Hong Kong on Pak Hoi Street from his parents Chiu Kau and Shiu Ying, who were both masters in Hung Gar. Learning from both parents, just imagine that! Always someone to correct you. Chiu Kau being a top performer in his younger and even older days. Chiu Chi Ling, being the youngest son, he also was encouraged by his older sister and brothers, from which Chiu Wai is now known as the 'King of Hung Gar'.

The Chiu Family is a family with an outstanding reputation in the Hung Gar Style.

As for Chiu Chi Ling he is wellknown for promoting the art of Hung Gar to the public. In the seventies he was one of the Hung Gar performers that was mostly interviewed in magazines and on television, especially in Asia. He had a short career in the movieworld but was always dedicated to learn foreign students. For over ten years he is travelling around the world giving seminars. Especially in Europe he is very popular I've been told.
His first videofilm on Hung Gar with the Tiger- Crane Form, released in 1980, is the best instructionfilm on Hung Gar I have ever seen. And the last four years he released an other six films, that are of a very good quality.
Latest I heard from him was that he is writing a book. But for five years he was telling me the same that he was writing a book in which he would use pictures of his father performing tiger-crane.
Maybe he is still working on the same book.

Paul wrote: 'From what I have learned, the Chiu's were known for their bodybuilding, their dit da medicine, and finally their martial arts.'

A little bit shortsighted Paul, but I have heard this one before. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

They still have their body building equipment in their old school on Pak Hoi Street. Shiu Ying, now 97 (!) is stll living in this place, as well as this is a (second) home for her son Chiu Chi Ling.

The Chiu Family was well known for their Hung Gar.
They were also very good Dit Da healers.
Chiu Wai having a clinic in Canada. As far as I know he revceives most of his income from running this clinic.
Chiu Chi Ling learned Dit Da medicine (TCM) from his father and had his own clinic on Hong Kong Island.

As for the body building. Well you must admit that all the Chiu's look very strong. But that is just outward appearance. There Kung Fu can be hard as Iron and as Soft as Silk. So don't be fooled by that. I can say so because I have many times felt the subtile power that Chiu Chi Ling unleashes.
The Chiu's were the first to use modern western equipment (read: body building apparatus) to help them build muscle. Nothing wrong with that. But by practising their Kung Fu they never forgot the true application of Hung Gar power.

Thx you South Paw, for relaying your real life 1st person experiences w/ Master Chu.

Paul wrote:
"Boo hoo... I started it... What's next? Are you going to tell me which topics I can and cannot participate in? Grow up man, nothing on here is personal"

"O" = As I said, it was your prerogotive. As for growing up, Young PuP... i am. Understand that your insult was not only in your tone/candor but your rhetoric as well.

THE VERY NOTION OF TELLING SOMEONE TO SAVE FACE IMPLYS THAT YOU FELT CHU WAI SHOULD BE EMBARRASSED.

Hey, your speaking of free speech. By your own words just now, you admitted to starting s#1t. Well don't put it out if you cant take it in return. So your silly crybaby comeback is a moot point. I called you on your stink and your still as unapologetic as ever.

As for the magazine, You had admited that you got alot of your information about current HG masters from an old Hong Kong magazine article. Not like that other guys here who've spoken to source.

You also wrote:
"I've heard a few different opinions on this Chiu Kao vs Lai Ng Sam debate. I do not know enough about the relationships between the two, so I will only comment on what I know, or what seems to make the most sense. My mind will be made up when I see how both camps train/fight/perform."

"O" This is sounds like to me you don't know s#1t. How come you will let these guys who are obviously better informed than you hash it out like cannon fodder now? A year ago you were posting insults to us with absolute certainty in your writting.

So you've admited to starting a beef w/ the Chu's. Didn't you expect some kind of response? In my book, the only difference between you and Word is we know your identity. Big leap