The Ultimate Okinawan Martial Arts Thread

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Originally posted by 'MegaPoint
Yeah, been training and doing school stuff. Don't get me wrong. I love Isshin ryu, and totally dig the idea of mixing Goju and Shorin. I just know from Shorin experience that kata such as Gojushiho teach many adavnced principles.

Every Isshin Ryu guy (or girl) I've known was awesome and very well mannered. I have the utmost respect for this ryuha. I am by no means of Shinshi Shimabuku's caliber and probably never will be. I agree with your assertion that he did understand other forms and decided to maybe detail their lessons in other ways, maybe by creating Sunsu.

Hard Sanchin is good. Hard, forced breathing/exhalation (Ibuki Breathing) is not. I will peep that site and see what it has to say. Does your Isshin school practice Sanchin as does a typical Goju dojo? I need to research and learn more myself.

Thanks for the compliments and keep the good Okinawan karate posts coming.

Good lookin' out...

In all honesty, the only time I've seen Gojuryu performing Sanchin was at the Wonder Okinawa site. I've had the great pleasure of working out with an Okinawan Goju dojo near our own. In fact, I got to sit in on watching one of my sensei's best friends get his fourth degree in that system, and watched the final phase of a brown belt's shodan testing. Unfortunately, Sanchin was not practiced in either instance.

In regards to Hard Sanchin, sans Ibuki breathing, could you illustrate how this is practiced? What I'm imagining is relaxed, deep breathing, not forced, combined with muscular tension which would not force the breath. If it's not obvious, I've had little experience with this set outside of my school . . . especially as relates to applications.

Here's an article relating the possibility of Gojushiho's practice within Shimabuku's earlier Isshinryu. I somewhat doubt the story, though, as it gives the '54 inception date, as opposed to the '56. Plus, there's the second-hand nature of the narration . . .

I'd rather like to taste Bassai Sho, and perhaps Gojushiho. And really, I'm gunning to work some Uechiryu folks, and really anyone who is a decent practitioner of a Fukien based style. Add to that my growing fixation with drunken boxing, I've got a bit of studying to do. Thank God I'm still young. Now, just to heal and get back to training.

It's good to have some OMA talk, especially with peeps who really know what the deal is.

Peace.

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Here. Also goes into discussion of Hakutsuru ( ).

I'm rather fond of the Sanchin set, I just don't do the heavy-breathing thing. I breath deep, but don't force it. I have a decent bit of muscular tension. I personally feel that it has many martially applicable concepts, I'm just rather ill-informed about the physiological effects, and I keep getting contradictory information in regards to it.

Whipping power in strikes is also mentioned. Glad to see I'm not alone on that idea.

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Here's Fernando's full site.

He's got a lot of good stuff. Still going through it all.

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Check Out This Gojuryu Personal Page.

Interesting stuff.

[Vash]

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint
Hard Sanchin is good. Hard, forced breathing/exhalation (Ibuki Breathing) is not. I will peep that site and see what it has to say. Does your Isshin school practice Sanchin as does a typical Goju dojo? I need to research and learn more myself.

Just trying to keep this question alive.

Could you describe the differences between Ibuki Sanchin and "hard" Sanchin? I'm rather fond of the body mechanics lessons inherent in this set, and would like to see it from every possible, trainable angle.

Peace.

[Vash]

A good article on Sanchin safety.

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Regarding Sanchin, too.

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a Joe Swift thing.

the part pertaining to Sanchin:

<< the performance of Sanchin kata, the very heart of Goju Ryu. The Sanchin kata of Higashionna was performed with open hands, and a much sharper, faster breathing pattern. It is somewhat similar to the Sanchin of Uechi Ryu.>>>

How do we know that Higaonna's sanchin was like that? People like Kyoda Juhatsu (Miyagi's senior) also taught it with closed fists. Through years of research in Fujian, Tokashiki Iken (Gohaku-kai) came to the conclusion that the Happoren form was the basis for the Sanchin that Higaonna later refined into his Okinawan style. The use of the open hands in Happoren is very reminiscent of Tensho, and MAY have been a source of inspiration for Miyagi (and Mabuni). Maybe Miyagi learned it from Higaonna or maybe from Go Kenki. Yes, I know that Miyagi is said to have formed Tensho from the Rokkishu found in the Bubishi, but again, research in Fujian (by Tokashiki) has revealed that even within the same system, different teachers would have different Rokkishu (6 Ji Hands). Some would even have more (10 Ji Hands, etc.).

FYI, Happoren was used as an elementary Qigong exercise, as well as a way to strengthen the "iron bridges" (forearms). Of course, practical application is also a primary concern ;-)

<< he was asked to de-emphasize the lethal striking techniques, and emphasize the health aspects of the form, being that Sanchin is a form of Standing Chi Gung. With further research, and the help of a doctor, Miyagi changed Higashionna's Sanchin to closed hands, and a slower breathing pattern. He also created the more advanced breathing form, Tensho.>>>

Yes, but did you hear the rumor that Miyagi had asthma and couldn't do Sanchin the way that Higaonna did it? AGAIN, no corroboration, just one more corner to look into!

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Another discussion on Sanchin.

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Roots of Okinawan Iron Body Training

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The First One.

The Second One.

The Third One.

I figure I can only inflate my post count so much on one thread . . .

[edit]What the fug? They censored "chin" in the title of the post.[/edit]

[rogue]

My Isshinryu sensei teaches sanchin without the ibuki breathing. He even starts to teach the body control/momemtary hardening part before any student is allowed to free spar.

I've always wondered about Shimabuku's selection of kata. Most are obvious choices but I'm not sure about some others. I'm getting the feeling that Shimabuku didn't set Isshinryu up as a best of Shorin and Goju to replace them but as a more streamlined system that was easier to get effective with. I can see where some of the more advanced parts of Goju and Shorin may have been cut from the normal curriculum to acheive that goal.

I've also run into someone who trained in shotokan and he's shown things that I've never seen done in shotokan before, but that's all he's ever trained. I can't remember his lineage but I know it's the shotokai branch.

How're things going Mega?

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Originally Posted by 'Megapoint on another forum.

There are and were some Okinawan Shinshii who did Sanchin and lived to a ripe old age. Those who practiced the unnatural Ibuki method usually died young. Usually not always.

Forced exhalation, where the glottis is constricted while air is forcefully and slowly expelled from the lungs can definitely lead to long-term health problems. Obvious are strokes at a later age, when plaque build-up in the vessels is higher, and the chance that intravascular "debris" will be dislodged and become stuck at some juncture in the brain, leading to a CVA or a TIA.

Conversely, I don't know how many Naha Te practitioners do it this way, but to have audible and forceful respiration, tensing your hara (tanden) and allowing for a slower exhalation, without the pressure of a forced and constricted inhalation or exhalation, and to practice on tensing when struck (at the begining of breathing-"spitting"), rather than throughout the entire drawn-out exhalation, then this method may not be so detrimental in the long run.

Folks at risk of aneurysms (weak arterial walls), may eventually suffer from a ruptured cerebral aneurysm, if they strain and engorge the vessels of their neck and head too much, which would not be good . You don't know if you're one of those people. It's best to be smart and moderate in your training methods and intensity.

To practice Sanchin, with good, safe Shime and more natural breathing would probably be best in the long run. Karate seem to provide its smarter and more cautious practitioners with a safer AND longer life (it's not only about fighting). That is, if they understand the middlepath. All Okinawan karate is based on this philosophy after all, or at least purports to be.

Here's the link to the thread.

Good stuff.

[SevenStarPM]

hi,
well I have to say this thread is really interesting. I've done Japanes karate in the past, and currently I'm doing 7 star praying mantis kung fu. What I'd really like to do is learn an okinawan karate style. problem is, I can't find any in my area (and I am willing to travel, but so far my closest is over 100 miles away..and thats a bit far even for me!) I was wondering whether anyone on this site knew of any Okinawan karate schools or Sensei in the North east of England?
Thanks

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Another Thread on KFM!!!

New Topic:

Influences of tournament sparring/kata competition on practice of the art.

Why have these events become such a big influence on technique training in the gym these days? Or, have they influenced it at all?

I recall last Saturday, talking with the student of another teacher. He showed me his fighting stance, showed some of his "prize-winning" strikes. i was horrified. His side seisan, a stance which places the fighter on a forty-five degree angle, was sooo to the side, I had an easy shot at his rear kidney. Also, he was so slow in throwing a reverse punch from this tied-up stance, I, with my gimp ass, walked three steps into his guard by the time the punch grazed my shoulder.

My supposition:

Point sparring has polluted karate. Point sparring = suxors, and is suitable only for derisive comments from anyone who's ever had a 200lb man drop his knee across their face after the two trip during a rather heated sparring session. Therefore, I say it should be banned, and the proponents of such be flayed.