Whats wrong with full contact Chi Sau?

[Vio]

All the gyms I've trained people were told to chill whenever sticky hands got really heated - with people throwing punches. Is there any particular reason why chi sau is meant to be gentle and controlled? I would have thought the more alive the training the better.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Chi Sau is for training certain attributes like structure and sensitivity. It is not a fighting exercise. Kau Sau (sp?) is for a more contact oriented approach to using the attributes garnered from Chi Sau practive.

Just like there are various levels of sparring and boxers would not train all out while trying to develope specific skills, one should keep Chi Sau practice as a piece of the puzzle and not the whole.

When one applies the attributes of body positioning\structure\sensitivity in sparring then one is applying the results of properly trained Chi Sau. However having said that it is quite possible to become a profficient fighter without training Chi Sau. Chi Sau is simply a training method to develope certain attributes more quickly, IMHO.

[forever young]

Originally Posted by Vio

All the gyms I've trained people were told to chill whenever sticky hands got really heated - with people throwing punches. Is there any particular reason why chi sau is meant to be gentle and controlled? I would have thought the more alive the training the better.

there is so many things wrong with 'full contact chisau' i cant list them all but the biggest ones are that chisau has little in common with sparring and bears little relation to positions you may find yourself in in an altercation, rather it is imo a way of calmly practising things like timing, distancing, mass usage, fixed torso, correct shape and attention to details, now bear in mind you obviously can play chisau in many many ways one of the differences in chisau and sparring is the level of contact ie if you are seriously going FULL CONTACT at such a close range the risk of injury to yourself or your partner (not opponent) is extremely high without some form of protection (whether its gloves/gumshields/headgear whatever, that is always up to the individual as to the level of protection but bear in mind if you have to work and feed your family i would suggest approaching things with personal safety in mind NOT being 'hardcore' but being realistic. now i have had the discussion with people that gloves and other such protective equiptment is not realistic but i will say this, if i asked you to hit something hard ie a wall with bare hands then asked you to do the same with gloves which punch would you feel safer throwing harder? probably the one with gloves i would imagine you will pull the punch more bare handed (or perhaps your a 'nutter ' so in conclusion (and based on experience) people will feel a LOT happier hitting you much harder while wearing gloves. now unless you are doing some mad type chisau i cant really see chisau working in 8 oz gloves (what i use and the minimum i would recommend for ANY full contact work) and i again would NOT like to be on the receiving end of a full force punch or punches from a 4 oz ufc type glove (ulnless i was getting paid )so in conclusion save chisau for develpoment, do full contact gor sau using strictly wing chun and then when you feel ok start 'mixing it up' sparring using any and all you feel (perhaps work sometimes on just boxing or other times on grappling along side any wing chun either one or both of you) or you could just hit eachother during chisau and 'think you are 'wing chun sparring' (which it isnt )
i would also point you here http://www.ninobernardo.com/divorcin...e_article.html
please read this article and try and digest its full implications, then spar properly THEN tell us whether chisau should be done 'full contact'
just my 02

[chisauking]

There are no limits in chisau. The intensity of chisau is determined by the skill of the practitioners. Chisau should be on a progressive level and should be practiced \ engaged at the full capacity between partners....but care should be taken so not to exceed either practitioner's limits in order to minimise injuries. To answer Vio's question: there's no problem with full contact chisau.....however, the problem arises when either one of the training partners -- or both -- can't handle this level of chisau.

Looking at chisau in another perspective, chisau is actual wing chun tools (Tan, bong, fook, wu, etc.). If you can't use your wing chun tools in a 'controlled envirnment' what makes you think you can apply it when your opponent has space \ distance added to the equation, when the strikes has more power? Every other 'effective' fighting method trys to work at full intensity, so why should wing chun work at 50%.?

In regards to Nino Bernardo's writing:If we remove violent intent from the equation, we can develop Wing Chun as a study of the human body. We become like engineers or architects, studying the biomechanics and structure of the body. This is a healthier attitude than trying to claim ownership of the whole system, as many students attempt to do.

With all due respect to Nino, I PERSONALLY don't agree with his thinking on this. Chisau trains many, many things besides attributes building, and it's one of the best ways to introduce practitioners to the 'emotional' aspects of fighting. With full contact chisau, we can replicate -- to a lesser degree -- the emotional or stress conditions of a real fight. By inducing this 'state of mind' to a student, we can better 'prepare' him\her for a real confrontation and for the mental \ emotional stress that would surely follow. Learning to control your mental state of mind in this manner is far safer than gor-sau or all out fighting. Wing chun is fighting, and by its very nature, fighting can be damaging. You can't stop all injuries during training, but you can minimise it (which is what Chinese believe gung-fu training to be: an intelligent form of training to fight)


This is written by a novice, mediocre wing chun practitioner, so if it upsets you, it's probably due to the fact I know wing chun not at all.

[Nick Forrer]

Nothing wrong with full contact chi sau as long as there is agreement of both parties and appropriate protection where striking the head is concerned.

At the least it teaches you to distinguish between simply tagging someone and striking them with proper power, accuracy and positioning.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Chi Sao seems to operate (more is learnt) if done so at a reasonable pace. However, like many types of training, we cannot know its effectiveness unless pressure is applied. Whilst I am not a fan of going hard in Chi Sao as it tends to turn into sloppy hand chasing, there are rare times when some headgear and solid palm strikes helps one learn about how to work under pressure. This is something I picked up from a superb Chi Sao player named Jesse Glover.

However, Chi Sao is no substitute to pressure testing by way of sparring. It is at such times that one understands the flaws of drills with fixed positions.

[Liddel]

I agree with Nick a WWW on this one, but also for me if Chi Sao gets to full contact (agreed by both parties) this is more like Gor Sao and sparring so its not really chi sao for all intense and purposes... IMO that is.

I had a guy visit from another school once and he was all soft and feeling things out untill my ability didnt let him land some shots he tried. He immediatly added more force untill he went a little nuts i had to gain space and give a kick, only for him to then say "hey, thats not part of chi sao" LOL.

So make sure the exact context of what your doing is known by both parties prior to touching hands, and if your at someone elses place take a friend !

DREW

[t_niehoff]

Originally Posted by Vio

All the gyms I've trained people were told to chill whenever sticky hands got really heated - with people throwing punches. Is there any particular reason why chi sau is meant to be gentle and controlled? I would have thought the more alive the training the better.

You need to begin with seeing that chi sao does not develop fighting skills. The easy way to see this for yourself is to ask anyone who says otherwise to spar with a decently skilled non-WCK fighter and see if their fighting looks anything like their chi sao or if they are moving like they do in chi sao. It won't -- because they can't. So they are "training" to do one thing (to move in a certain way), but then doing something else in fighting. This is a prime example of poor training.

So why do chi sao if that's not how we will fight, if it is not application? Well, you don't really need to do chi sao, you can learn the skills directly in a sparring-type platform (assuming your instructor really knows what he is doing). But you can use chi sao if you appreciate its limited use: it is a learning platform.

Chi sao is only a learning platform because it is an unrealistic (in that the exercise does not correspond to the reality of fighting) artificial, limited exercise that will allow you to learn various contact fighting skills. By "learn" I mean be introduced to and then develop (practice them) to the point where you can physically perform them comfortably (if you can't perform them, how could you fight with them?). If you view chi sao in this way, then you will immediately grasp why it isn't, and by its very nature can't be, "alive." Trying to make the exercise "more realistic" or "more alive" will be fruitless, as to do so will require you to basically scrap the exercise!

You'll also appreciate that the exercise isn't in itself to "train certain attributes like structure and sensitivity" since these things are by-products of the skills (only by traiing the skills do you get these things, which are skill-specific btw).

To learn and develop those contact fighting skills to a point where you can comfortably perform them will require more than just being "gentle and controlled" however. Fighting is not "gentle and controlled." It involves loads of pressure, sloppiness, violent actions, etc., and for you to really learn those contact fighting skills will require you to at some point put those qualities into the exercise. For example, you can only learn to deal with pressure by dealing with pressure.

Once you have "learned" these contact fighting skills, you then need to put them into sparring to practice or train them as fighting skills. The development of these beyond the superficial level takes place only via quality sparring.

[k gledhill]

The seung ma toi ma at the begining of chi-sao process teaches to hit an incoming line of force [ tan sao & 1/2 step] with angle back and offline [ toi ma]...the precise reason for this exercise is training for maximum damage at the correct time with balanced structure / mechanics ....the rest involves removal of obstructions to this entry ..and more ....full contact will render the first guy to enter and being hit like this going to hospital. We learn something harder in VT , CONTROL
Chi-sao is role playing with each other to help fight OTHERS WHO DONT KNOW OUR WAY its ludicrous to enter into a match ...you will find as I have each school wants to better the other ...but if one school has a technique that breaks the "process" for the sake of the hit we call this boxing and you will find that you seek a perimiter to enter on this guy ....and finish him not be his heavy bag...if I am forced to arm chase off my centerline to block a punch while standing in the center to his attack , wrong for me tacticly to be there in the first palce to fight. Tan sao never leaves the centerline.

We fight from a 'baseline' of a triangle seeking entry or being shown how by our opponents as they attack us.we can maneuver this space like any fighter . The final part of entry are the chi-sao distances and angles we spend so much time doing and maintaining . Learning never to attack down the midddle of an attacking line of force [ bullfighting ]. There is a process for chi-sao and its not to end up standing in front of someone with 2 arms extended. Not to wail on each other standing in front . We role play in a random manner , with techniques we will use for our tactical entry.
The chi-sao is the tip of the triangle so to speak the end of our entry from a baseline /perimiter [ like dummy entry from sides] . EAch partner acts as the attacker randomly testing our ability and vice versa to freely apply angling and responses in real time to either side of the designated entry. obviously we wont always be able to maintain this tactic, so have other 'volley' methods from the base line to maneuver to the desired angles or forciby place the guy where we want using 'ging' in our pak, bong, po-pai etc... actions
Trying to turn chi-sao into a Fight is foolish. We use each other to train full force impact , but to be honest you will find simply TRYING to hit each other full force and not get hit IS THE LESSON one will find that the reality of delivering a 'stopping' force isnt as easy as it sounds at close quarters to a moving object. AND to start with the notion that you can just do it any time is hilarious ...a body moving towards you is stealing your force with every inch it comes at you....
if you are slow or fast by a smal amount of timing you wont have the leg timing let alone the arm you lose the whole idea of seung ma toi ma.

SEUNG MA ~ TOI MA IS LEARNING TO HIT FULL IMPACT IN STAGES only after you have been shown by your attacker what side to deliver this attack ...

mistakes in this drill are the way to fight others not each other....we fix each other not ko you for making a mistake



Chisao helps to develop fighting skills

[Nick Forrer]

Originally Posted by t_niehoff

You need to begin with seeing that chi sao does not develop fighting skills. The easy way to see this for yourself is to ask anyone who says otherwise to spar with a decently skilled non-WCK fighter and see if their fighting looks anything like their chi sao or if they are moving like they do in chi sao. It won't -- because they can't. So they are "training" to do one thing (to move in a certain way), but then doing something else in fighting. This is a prime example of poor training.

So why do chi sao if that's not how we will fight, if it is not application? Well, you don't really need to do chi sao, you can learn the skills directly in a sparring-type platform (assuming your instructor really knows what he is doing). But you can use chi sao if you appreciate its limited use: it is a learning platform.

Chi sao is only a learning platform because it is an unrealistic (in that the exercise does not correspond to the reality of fighting) artificial, limited exercise that will allow you to learn various contact fighting skills. By "learn" I mean be introduced to and then develop (practice them) to the point where you can physically perform them comfortably (if you can't perform them, how could you fight with them?). If you view chi sao in this way, then you will immediately grasp why it isn't, and by its very nature can't be, "alive." Trying to make the exercise "more realistic" or "more alive" will be fruitless, as to do so will require you to basically scrap the exercise!

You'll also appreciate that the exercise isn't in itself to "train certain attributes like structure and sensitivity" since these things are by-products of the skills (only by traiing the skills do you get these things, which are skill-specific btw).

To learn and develop those contact fighting skills to a point where you can comfortably perform them will require more than just being "gentle and controlled" however. Fighting is not "gentle and controlled." It involves loads of pressure, sloppiness, violent actions, etc., and for you to really learn those contact fighting skills will require you to at some point put those qualities into the exercise. For example, you can only learn to deal with pressure by dealing with pressure.

Once you have "learned" these contact fighting skills, you then need to put them into sparring to practice or train them as fighting skills. The development of these beyond the superficial level takes place only via quality sparring.

Good post. To me chi sau is like using training wheels when first learning to ride a bike. Useful when you start but after a certain base level of competancy is obtained they have to come off if you ever want to be able to actually ride.

[k gledhill]

We arent all riding the same bike

[YungChun]

Nothing wrong with full/hard contact Chi Sao... So long as saftey is addressed.. It's just Chi Sao with hard contact, with release of power..

Among those I have trained with hard/full contact hits was always the norm.. A hell of a lot better for training correct mechanics, timing and technique and conditioning than these long range no contact, "indicated strikes" or "touch me kill me" moves..

[k gledhill]

Exactly , air strikes or pose and everybody look at me techniques , i got him first
who cares now fight and see if you can stop him with it
VT requires a tactical delivery like any fighting method....not just stick to guys arms in a dirty clinch front and center ....bull v bull fighter...timing is everything, Ive never seen a bullfighter stick to horns front and center , have you ? maybe in a circus where guy jumps over the horns !

[YungChun]

I think a lot of people are missing the more subtle things that Chi Sao teaches, like "tactical delivery".. Not everything is about sticking or clinching...

Beyond tactile sticking stuff, there is:

Distance awareness..

Correct mechanics body alignment..

How to move into good a position wrt to the opponent..

Tool/weapon placement...

How to use correct timing..

How to release power...

Use of angles and openings..

How to intercept movement...

General kinesthetic/body awareness..

And more..

--------------------------

Wing Chun is about simplicity... The ideal in WCK is to be as simple as possible, not use as many WCK techniques as is possible..

If we find a simpler way we don't say, we will add this to Wing Chun, we say this IS Wing Chun ..

[t_niehoff]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

We arent all riding the same bike

Nick's analogy of the training wheels on a bike is accurate. And if you look at it from this perspective, it exposes chi sao competitions for what they really are. Do people -- adults -- really want to have bike races when the bikes have training wheels?

We all are riding the same bike -- it just doesn't look that way because in chi sao we all have the training wheels on, and those wheels permit/allow people to "get away" with all kinds of things, things that they couldn't "get away with" if they took the training wheels off. So you get people doing all kinds of different things, all supported by the training wheels. But when the training wheels come off, most of that stuff you will no longer see.

My view is that instead of using theory (what I believe fighting should be) to guide what things you do at the training wheel stage, use genuine application (what will actually be involved in contact fighting) to guide you as to what to do at the training wheel stage. That way, when you take off the training wheels, you've actually been practicing those things that will work without the support of the wheels. That step, however, is beyond most people "teaching" WCK.