Kiu Sau in Hung Gar-Let's concentrate on the finger...

[The Xia]

and we won't be missing any heavenly glory!
This thread is about the kiu sau in Hung Gar where the index finger points upward. I heard that aside from its martial arts purposes, it was a posture that signified rebellion against the Qing dynasty. If this is true, I wonder if “village” Hung Gar also uses it. I have not seen it in Ha Say Fu and heard it’s not in that style. It wasn’t in what little I’ve seen of other “village” Hung Gar either. Anyone have information on this?

[TenTigers]

This hand position although used to signify,"If all the Han (subjugated Chinese) would raise one finger, we could restore the Ming to power again," it predates the rebellion, and is found in other cultures. That being said, I have seen in other lines of Hung Kuen the kiu sao as a palm, Tiger Claw, Crane Wing,and a cross between a Crane Wing and a Single finger. The single finger is IMHO overused in many modern versions of the sets more for stylistic value than application.

[banditshaw]

Would it be safe to say that the finger up position adds to the dynamic tension of the particular tendons in the forearm as opposed to the tension of a Fu Jow?
Meaning are you working different core muscles/tendons with one or the other.

[Vajramusti]

Any implication of a symbol of overthrowing the Qing is nice romantic history- but the practical martial structural importance is more interesting IMHO.
"Strengthening tendons"? Which ones and why? Curious.

joy chaudhuri

[jdhowland]

This handform does put more strain on the muscles and extensor tendon of the first digit. This may inhibit speed when compared with a standard jaau, but has the advantage of being a partly open palm. It is used extensively in Hop Ga and TWC in tension/breathing exercises and as an indicator in sets that the technique has the potential for both seizing and nerve-point manipulation. We call it gam gong jih. It is not part of the traditional buddhist mudra system so my assumption is that our use derives from Hung Ga/Hu Hok Pai.

[TenTigers]

yes, it transitions from "block" to grab and from grab to pierce,the hand formation is used for srtiking points,striking with the claw, then piercing with the finger,i.e.lface into eye, mapping out points, and in Sayoc Kali, it is one of the grips used in holding the blade while allowing wrist control into grip.

[Vajramusti]

Interesting explanations for the use of the index finger. Thanks.

joy chaudhuri

[HOKPAIWES]

Probably the same with the other "Tibetans" crane also uses the 1 finger as mentioned above, a measuring tool for applying a choke for example.

[TenTigers]

what I find interesting is that I have seen some other lines of Hung-Ga inn their Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen also use the single finger with the palm down, as seen in Hop-Ga/Lama/TWC forms.

[chivalrous hall]

Originally Posted by banditshaw

Would it be safe to say that the finger up position adds to the dynamic tension of the particular tendons in the forearm as opposed to the tension of a Fu Jow?
Meaning are you working different core muscles/tendons with one or the other.

good simple explanation. when done @ a proper 90degree the whole structure changes from either a fu jow, toi jeung, wan toi jeung, gwa jeung...

cheers,

[The Xia]

Does anyone know if the formation originates from Shaolin? And how's about each finger being symbolic for different things?

[Laukarbo]

yeah each finger symbolises something but we "ming patriots" cant reveal the secret otherwise the qings understand our secret signs
If you were a ming you´d know...

[Mulong]

Adding to the discussion; other southern style use the sword finger (jianzhi/gim ji) instead of single finger (danzhi/daan ji); for example, fojiaquan/faht ga kyuhn.

Actually, danzhi is used within qinna (kahn nah); look at any major hapkido stylist, you will see interesting uses of the danzhi.

[The Xia]

ttt........