this place needs a FAQ... (redundancy)

[lkfmdc]

This place needs a FAQ so we don't have to say the same stuff over and over again, like;

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There are, simply put, no "new techniques".... EVERYTHING you see in the ring or the cage you can find in tradtional martial art (TMA)

The fundamental difference is that the so called "MMA" people train those techniques realistically and many TMA do not

TMA as it is practiced today is also filled with utterly useless clap trap, primiarily a result of 1) lots of spare time on their hands since they don't fight and 2) a desire to sell "cool stuff" to unsuspecting rubes

Other fundamental differences between so called TMA and so called MMA

Most TMA people view their method and their lineage as religion. They do not change what they do, they do not look outside it. Frequently I've heard people say "oh, that technique? We don't do that, it isn't part of our system"

MMA people don't care if it is "part of their system"... they are more of the "use what works" sort of crowd..

A TMA person might sneer at me for using a Jiujitsu style arm bar, I'll just laugh because I don't care, I use what will work, don't care if it wasn't part of the system 150 years ago

TMA also tend to be clan-ish. They train with their class mates, they view outsiders as enemies.

Most MMA welcome the opportunity to work out with other people....
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In the "old days" we certainly did spar with "ground fighting" but, and this is a big but, what we saw as ground fighting was influeneced by the traditional Chinese martial art idea of ground fighting....

We never thought about pinning, controlling position, submissions, etc... we thought about hitting the guy who was thrown, stomping on him, and we thought about kicking and sweeping from teh bottom and getting up....

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What most people think of as "traditional" is what has been "sold" to westerners over the past 35 years or so....

In the places where Kung Fu originated and where most westerners got it from, forces suppressed and made politically correct CMA

Taiwan needed to win over foreign support, have it's economic modernization and was controlled basicly as a police state for many years

HOng Kong was under British rule, and the British wanted to stop the mayhem in the street

Communist mainland is obvious

There are also plenty of "instructors" who simply wanted to make it a business, cater to an ignorant public, play to the lowest common denominator and make plenty of cash...

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The initial strength of BJJ in MMA competitions was that many arts want to put the other person on their back, either striking them until they fall down or throwing them.... so often people put their BJJ opponents on their back themselves, then discoverd to their horror that the BJJ student could still fight from this position... and if you don't know how to fight a BJJ guard, you will be either submited or swept....

In other words, underestimating your opponent and/or being ignorant of the possible dangers is always a formula for defeat

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Hate to sound like Lao Tzu but the strenth of TMA is also it's greatest weakness...

For example, TMA assumes attacks from all directions, no time to square off, assume a stance, etc.... ie there is no "structure"... whereas most so called combat sports assume a basic position and work from there... the problem is, learning to throw everyting equally, from both sides, from all positions, is an imposing task...

TMA teaches forms as a movement study, rather than a set single application, it has multiple possibilities, it is adaptable to situations, that's great if you've been doing it for 15 plus years, for a newbie

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Fighting does change over time. Hopology, ie the history of combat, teaches us that the knight in plate armour did not fight like the Renaissance gentleman....

More directly to the point, police instruction in different parts of the world IS geared differently because different cultures do fight differently

In the US, major metropolitan areas have become "boxing towns" (NY, Detroit, Chicago, etc)... while rural areas retain a strong wrestling tradition (just got back from doing a fight event in Willard OH... big boys with good wrestling made for a fun night of MMA)...

In teh UK, the head butt is an ingrained part of their fight culture (Korea as well)

Japan is a knife culture, it's police train with the full expectation that a knife is hidden and will be used

BJJ wasn't part of mainstream fight culture in th 1980's ...

Fighting in inevitably influenced by the fight culture that originated it... a lot of TCMA is based upon a structure of bridges, sensitivity, clinging and trapping... if an American boxer doesn't "give you that structure" your technique is going to change....

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feel free to add some more

[ShaolinTiger00]

just got back from doing a fight event in Willard OH... big boys with good wrestling made for a fun night of MMA

- Ohio farm boy with a wrestling background now running a sucessful MMA school.

[SevenStar]

If we can KEEP THIS AS AN FAQ ONLY, I'll make it sticky...

[WinterPalm]

For example, TMA assumes attacks from all directions, no time to square off, assume a stance, etc.... ie there is no "structure"... whereas most so called combat sports assume a basic position and work from there... the problem is, learning to throw everyting equally, from both sides, from all positions, is an imposing task...

I am not sure if I understand this point correctly...are you suggesting that it is a weakness to assume that there will be no time to prepare? That you must be able to go from zero to 60 lickety split? I think this is a very good thing to train in...besides, you should know that structure is beyond an outward appearance but is the general bodily orientation of a practioner.

Sorry if this is derailing the thread but I am curious as to how this approach of mulitple attacks from angles is not beneficial or am I misunderstanding you?

[lkfmdc]

It always helps to read the ENTIRE POST

Hate to sound like Lao Tzu but the strength of TMA is also it's greatest weakness...

For example, TMA assumes attacks from all directions, no time to square off, assume a stance, etc.... ie there is no "structure"... whereas most so called combat sports assume a basic position and work from there... the problem is, learning to throw everyting equally, from both sides, from all positions, is an imposing task...

TMA teaches forms as a movement study, rather than a set single application, it has multiple possibilities, it is adaptable to situations, that's great if you've been doing it for 15 plus years, for a newbie?

IE, that's a pretty tall order to throw at someone who knows nothing and can't even throw the basic techniques correctly at first

[Hieronim]

"MMA people don't care if it is "part of their system"... they are more of the "use what works" sort of crowd.."

your wrong about this, look at the first ultimate fighter when the guy tried to use a judo throw and got yelled at for it by a coach who calle dit judo crap, or ken shamrock saying he doesnt need bjj and other exampels of style rivaries.

[Hieronim]

"Fighting does change over time. Hopology, ie the history of combat, teaches us that the knight in plate armour did not fight like the Renaissance gentleman....

More directly to the point, police instruction in different parts of the world IS geared differently because different cultures do fight differently"

so what do you prepare for? which culture does your stle fight? what if you travel alot than what do you train? and how does mma train for various cultures when they dont evena dress weapon fighting?

[lkfmdc]

1. Train to fight in 2006, not 1906

2. Try to realize that the only fight you truely win is the fight you avoid

3. If you get into a bar fight in the UK, prepare to be head butted, if it's the Phillipine Islands, prepare to be cut. If you gamble in back rooms in Tokyo prepare to be stabbed.

4. Or avoid situations like the above (#2) and live to be a little older....

[Hieronim]

what I wonder about headbutts is how hard is it to apply one to someone taller where you have to bring their neck down to you to do it, wouldnt they jerk their ehad back as an automatic response to you trying to pull them toward you?

[WinterPalm]

I did read the entire post but I didn't realize that the Lao Tze was part of that...

Interesting...I suppose the plethora of techniques and scenarios that have been taught to me always started with basic defenses and ingraining techniques properly while beginning to train for more and more complicated and various types of attacks.

It really is all about the basics...put that in the faq.

[FatherDog]

If you don't spar regularly, you almost certainly suck at fighting.

[Hieronim]

define regularly? some people are naturals while others need to spar to keep their reflexes sharp, I know some guys in the gym who I thought were gonna be push overs cause they ahve no technique when shadow boxing or hitting bags but cans par relentlessly, its often all about heart.

[SevenStar]

to quote morgan freeman in "million dollar baby":

"show me a fighter who is all heart and no skill and I'll show you a fighter who is anxious to get his ass kicked."

[David Jamieson]

Originally Posted by FatherDog

If you don't spar regularly, you almost certainly suck at fighting.

Um, this is not true. Although there is a smidgen of truth to it in regards to training for fighting.

I know more than a few guys who don't train and can kick ass quite well without sparring on a regular basis.

[Kristoffer]

I'm all for a FAQ. this thread has already turned into a discussion so after a few pages of this someone could just copy/paste the essentials to a real one where all non related stuff will be deleted.