Questions on Bak Sil Lum

[Takeda]

I'm verry interested in Bak Sil Lum. I have read the article "Bak Sil Lum vs. Shaolin Tempel" with great interest. And I have read the books from Sifu Hung Lai / Sifu Gary Tang "Secrets of Northern Shaolin Kung Fu" and "Combat Shaolin". But I have still some questions on Bak Sil Lum. I'm verry happy when you Bak Sil Lum-practitioners can answer my questions:

1. How is the systematic training-process in Bak Sil Lum to translate the forms in effective fighting technics for real dangerous situations.
Are there single patterns (single technics from a form) and combat sequences (linked patterns from a form = pre-arranged sparring) in Bak Sil Lum which are trained with a partner (I don't mean the two-person sparring form)?

2. How is Bak Sil Lum build up? Am I right with my follow acceptance: first basic school, then all ten core-forms (perfect one form then learn the next form without forget the basic school), then the weapon forms? And what's next?

3. Which Internal-Arts / Chi Kung-Arts are in the curriculum of Bak Sil Lum?

4. Are there any additional exercices (except the classes which prepare for sparring-competitions) like push-ups, sti-ups, press-ups, jogging, sandbag- or paws-training, or ....?

5. Please give me the approximate precentage of each training-element from the whole Training in Bak Sil Lum. (please separate for beginners, advanced an "master level"):

- Basic school .....%
- Patterns .....%
- Combat Sequences (Pre-arranged Sparring).....%
- Form .....%
- Chi Kung / Internal-Training .....%
- Blow-Training (Sandbag, paws, ....) .....%
- .....%
- .....%
- .....%

7. Do Sifu Hung Lai and Sifu Chan Kwok Wai instruct the classes still personally?

I'm awaiting your answers with great tension.

[Lu Zhi Shen]

Greetings.

Your best bet would be to contact Sifu Gus at www.kungfuconnection.com. He is in direct contact with many of the old masters of Bak Sil Lum.


Almitoufo

Lu Zhi Shen

[Ravenshaw]

It's been awhile since I've posted here, but here's my shot. I'm a student of Wing Lam, so things might be a bit different from what Lai Hung may teach.

1. How is the systematic training-process in Bak Sil Lum to translate the forms in effective fighting technics for real dangerous situations.

That's a tough question. Bak Sil Lum is a very deep style. Within the style are only really a few different techniques (some stances, some strikes, some steps, etc.). I tend to think of the forms as an in-depth study of how these smaller elements interact to create effective body movements and patterns. Although in the beginning one might take a few techniques from a form and practice them for fighting, the higher level is understanding the smaller pieces and being able to spontaneously react with them to any situation. Unfortunately, it takes years of training to reach that level of physical comprehension. I don't claim to be there yet, either.

Anybody will tell you that the quickest way to learn how to fight is to learn a few basic moves and train them hard, then spar with them. That's not really Bak Sil Lum's method. Even among kung fu styles, it takes a long time to get somewhere (as a fighter).

2. How is Bak Sil Lum build up? Am I right with my follow acceptance: first basic school, then all ten core-forms (perfect one form then learn the next form without forget the basic school), then the weapon forms? And what's next?

Although it varies from school to school (no one still retains all the original sets), our school progresses this way: First the student learns the two basic forms. Then, he or she alternates between learning the Ten core hand forms and the weapon sets. Sparring sets are also taught, and Iron Palm and Small Golden Bell Qigong are both part of the curriculum. Wing Lam teaches 2 basic sets, 10 hand sets, 16 weapon sets, 6 sparring sets, Iron Palm, Small Golden Bell, and a few supplementary sets from other systems.

3. Which Internal-Arts / Chi Kung-Arts are in the curriculum of Bak Sil Lum?

The Iron Palm technique of Bak Sil Lum comes directly from Ku Yu Cheung, who was famous for it. It conditions the hand and also trains the open hand strikes to use soft, internal energy rather than tense energy. The Small Golden Bell Qigong is a set of internal exercises that conditions the body to withstand bludgeoning strikes. It is known generically as Iron Body or Iron Shirt.

4. Are there any additional exercices (except the classes which prepare for sparring-competitions) like push-ups, sti-ups, press-ups, jogging, sandbag- or paws-training, or ....?

Other than the sets and some partner drills, there are no set calisthenic exercises that a student absolutely must perform, though many martial artists augment their training with push-ups, crunches, hindu squats, jogging, and weight training. Stretching is a good thing to know.

5. Please give me the approximate precentage of each training-element from the whole Training in Bak Sil Lum. (please separate for beginners, advanced an "master level")

That's really hard to judge, since it varies between schools and even between classmates. Some people avoid basics training like the plague and only practice what is new and fun. Others practice basic skills such as stance work religiously. I can say that Bak Sil Lum's training methods are heavily reliant on forms training (see #1).

7. Do Sifu Hung Lai and Sifu Chan Kwok Wai instruct the classes still personally?

I don't have any personal experience with either of these teachers, so I can't really say.


I hope there was something in there for you.

[GeneChing]

For reference, here's the BSL vs. Shaolin article (part one, at least, it is a three-parter). You might also check out Phil Duffy's article on the e-zine - his master, William Wan Kei-ho is one of the leading BSL people in Hong Kong now - he was even featured on the cover of the July 2004 City Life, Hong Kong's leading tourist magazine.

On the whole, I'd agree with Ravenshaw's comments (we both trained under Sifu Lam) but as his sihing I have to correct him here:

Anybody will tell you that the quickest way to learn how to fight is to learn a few basic moves and train them hard, then spar with them. That's not really Bak Sil Lum's method. Even among kung fu styles, it takes a long time to get somewhere (as a fighter).

While BSL is a complex style and it takes a long time to progress within the system, all BSL beginners should be introduced to 'a few basic moves and train them hard, then spar with them.' Within the early forms, there are some fine simple techniques, plus there are plenty of good sparring basics like three-star blocks that can work right away for a beginner. If they can't implement those basics, progressing further ain't gonna help at all. Do you plan to teach the student form after form, and then show them some basic moves that work? That's silly and it's bad BSL. It's bad kung fu in general. Forms are great if people are just doing it for health, and I have no argument with anyone training any martial art just for health, but it's a mistake to say that training a few basic moves hard for sparring is not the BSL method. Quite the opposite. It's the foundation of real BSL.

[Ravenshaw]

Looking back at what I wrote, I see that I didn't really say what I meant. That really did come out pretty stupid, didn't it?

Anyway, the point was to contrast the method of only choosing a few specific applications to use with BSL's less rigid system. At least that's my understanding of it. If it's so completely wrong, I guess the verbal beating was justified.

I generally hear that introducing beginners to free sparring is a bad idea. Your posts reads like you disagree with this.

[herb ox]

Well, Brothers GeneChing and Ravenshaw pretty much covered it. It seems like you may have a high standard or a list of qualifying features when deciding on a martial art. The best way to find out more is to visit a BSL instructor.

Wanna learn how to fight quickly? Study Brazillian JiuJitsu or Krav Maga at your local martial arts outlet. BSL is an advanced form and requires long-term and persistent practice to understand and implement its fighting techniques. Furthermore, BSL, as with most non-commercial martial arts vary in teaching technique. Expect variation in training method, and even the "flavor" of the techniques.

If you want to learn about hard work and relaxed shoulders, BSL is a fine choice

peace and good luck,

herb ox

[GeneChing]

Free sparring and beginners really depends on your beginners. Some more macho schools (for lack of a better term) throw you right in. Obvously, BJJ and Krav Maga offer beginner classes and they don't spend time reciting tan tui, that's for sure. And like I said, most people pursue martial arts for health, in which case, sparring can be considered unhealthy and is out of the question. However, I firmly believe in controlled sparring, one-step sparring, applications exercises, etc. for beginners, assuming they're not part of the health crowd. In fact, I think that's absolutely critical.

I think both Ravenshaw and herb ox are getting a bit heady with BSL - that's easy to do because it's such a huge curriculam, almost too huge to be practical. I find it to be a common problem with BSL people here in the USA - I'm not sure why that is exactly. Perhaps, it's because when you get a sense of the magnitude of BSL, which I would venture to say only really happens when you have all your short forms and a smattering of the long forms, you see it's beauty. So both RS and HO are looking at it from a standpoint of the whole complete system, which is completely unnecessary from a combative standpoint. If you want to learn to fight quickly with BSL, it's way too daunting to take on the whole system. The whole system can build quite a martial arts master. But it only takes one BSL set, backed by solid basics, to build a fighter. It's all about how your approach it.

There are plenty of people who only work a few BSL sets, and that's enough. It's a hell of a lot of work to practice all BSL 10, plus weapons, plus qigong, every day. For most, it's better to focus one what they can attain realistically, given their training schedule.

If any other of my old shidi would like some beating, just for old times sake, please feel free to post here.

[Ravenshaw]

**** it...

Just when you think you've got it.

Anyway, at this point I have every one of the Ten sets except #'s 2 and 3. Because of the group I became a part of a couple years ago, I learned 9 and 10 before 1, 2, 3. So Gene's observation is correct... jerk.

Just kidding, of course.

But I don't feel too bad... the man has decades of experience on me. Hell, I don't even think I was alive when he started with Sifu (I was born in '85), so I'm willing to take his criticism. But apparently my kung fu is bad . That sucks.

Edit: Wow. I can't believe that word was censored. It's a PG word for crying out loud!

[GeneChing]

Hell, I don't even think I was alive when he started with Sifu (I was born in '85)

I'll give that one too ya

Our censors were set automatically - I could reset them, but they seemed so arbitrary and easy to defeat, it doesn't seem worth the trouble. Plus, it censors the name of another one of my little brothers from Shaolin, kungfu**** (on those grounds alone, I figure I should preserve them.) It lets through words like hell and jerk, what more do you need?

[BPK]

Hello Takeda,

I haven't been here for awhile, so I just came across your question. I'm actually co-author with Lai Hung on the books you mentioned.

i think the curriculum a BSL teacher uses really depends on the teacher. I've seen some who do a lot of basic exercises and non-core forms as a primer, then get into the core forms. Lai Hung has a small set of warm up exercises, but then gets right into the core forms. He, as you may know, was a successful full-contact fighter back in the late 50's and 60's -- and i think his full-contact training required him or inspired him to pare down the number of techniques he teaches. So, there's no lien bu chuan or other types of auxillary forms in his curriculum. He also teaches Choy lay Fut -- another reason he probably dispenses with a lot of the extra forms you might find in other curriculums.

As for translating form techniques into real fighting skills -- this is a tough one. It takes lots of practice using techniques against a resisting and attacking partner. In Lai Hung's classes, there is a fair amount of relaxed free sparring, but students have the choice to take it up a notch if they desire. There is very little punch-block-kick drills in his classes. It tends to be a bit looser than that. I guess the main thing is that he usually waits until a student expresses a real interest in developing more advanced fighting skills before starting that kind of training. He approaches fighting training very much like a boxer might. Fitness is very important and tons of sparring. But even so, he uses tons of traditional kung fu techniques -- like sliding horses to topple opponents and the like.

Hope this has been a little helpful. I don't have time for more now, but if you have questions i'll try to get back to you.

[Lokhopkuen]

From my humble perspective of 27 years in the style, Northern Shaolim is warrior training, a vast series of options beyond conscious though or reason. Each of the ten forms introduces you to an ever more challenging series of sequences which push the practitioner beyond their comfort zone. When the forms are trained as one (1-10) the practitioner is forced to go beyond all limitations into a state of relaxed strength and superior alignment.
From my personal perspective I find Lai Hong’s Northern is unique in comparison to say Wing Lam, Chen Kwok Wei or Ken Hui because his gung fu is descendant from Lung Chi Chung line and also has a strong Choi li fut influence. Just a note we had the chance to meet with and work out with Lung Kai Ming (Lung Chi Chung’s son) while visiting Kowloon in 2002 and Lai Hong’s gung fu is nothing like his which leads me to believe there was some sort of break in the transmission. Also I have two class mates Dr. Albert Chen and Eric Chen who are former students of Sifu Lai Hong and the Gung Fu they practice is night and day in comparison to what we are practicing in the Yim Shang Mo, Johnny So, Ken Hui lineage.

For more information on the style feel free to check out our site http://www.harmoniousfist.com

Peace

Lokhopkuen

[herb ox]

GeneChing said: "I think both Ravenshaw and herb ox are getting a bit heady with BSL... [snip] it only takes one BSL set, backed by solid basics, to build a fighter. It's all about how your approach it. "

As usual, Sihing, you speak words of wisdom, but my point was PRACTICE and hard work were the keys to becoming a good fighter in BSL. That's the approach. With all styles, a student's basics can't be solid without putting in the time - even those born with natural talent need some time (granted it may be a decade less than it took for me, but hey...)
I don't think there's anything heady about persistent practice. Except maybe for the lightheadedness I feel when I overexert myself (like walking from the computer to the fridge... )


Peace and happy Festivus

brother ox

[GeneChing]

Practice and hard work are keys to becoming a good fighter irregardless of style.

BSL is an advanced form and requires long-term and persistent practice to understand and implement its fighting techniques.

The problem with that statement is the implication. There are no simple techniques in BSL? None that you can understand easily and implement quickly? If not, that's a big problem with the system. That's a big problem with basic logic. How do you move to these so-called 'advanced forms' without progressing through the simple ones first? And are those simple ones useless for fighting?

BSL is sophisticated, no doubt. But a major problem with the study of sophisticated systems, especially in America, is that students get to focused on the summit without fully exploring the foothills. Sophistication becomes an excuse for the lack of fighting skills as high as "intermediate level" practitioners. That's just hiding behind an absurd intellectualization. Now, keep in mind, I have no problem with people who practice MA for health over fighting. Every MA person should have some sense of the martial aspect, but I wouldn't expect everyone to be fighters. My mom practiced tai chi - she's not going to get in the Octogon or anything. I do object to the kung fu health practitioners who think they'll be able to fight after they reach those "advanced forms." If you can't fight with the simple forms, there's no way in hell you'll be able to fight with the advanced ones. The simple BSL techniques are practical for fighting, they just aren't all fancy-shmancy. The system is very effective. It's the beginning level practitioners (or more accurately, intermediate instructors) who are ineffective at transmitted the applications on the ground floor.

[herb ox]

hmmmph!


right!


I'll just crawl back under by rock and practice some more.... just wait...

[Lokhopkuen]

All along my training my teacher has emphasized specialization in one technique for long periods of time and then later assigning another specialty. The fact is there are so many options one can easily become lost. It is only recently I have begun to notice the series of skills I have developed due to these "specialization phases". Now days I spend more time teaching than personally training and this has opened another
whole world for me of having to articulate verbally what my body has taken for granted for so many years.


Well anyway back to work gotta teach yet another class.

Peace