The definition of Southern Shao Lin Kiu Sau

[Hendrik]

According to Nam Shao Lin, Fujian,

forearm was called Kiu or bridge.

The method of using the forearem for attack and defense is called kiu faat or bridge method.


Kiu Faat can be seperated into two groups.
The Long Kiu method and the Short Kiu method.

The long kiu method generally is for distance attack and clear the path of the attack...etc
The Short Kiu method is generally for seal off and Lin Sil Dai Da (neutralize with counter)...etc

There are 4 key words about Kiu Faat or the method of using bridge.........


so above is what people are using in 1850's era and continous on......

[Savi]

Originally posted by Hendrik
According to Nam Shao Lin, Fujian,

forearm was called Kiu or bridge.

The method of using the forearem for attack and defense is called kiu faat or bridge method.


Kiu Faat can be seperated into two groups.
The Long Kiu method and the Short Kiu method.

The long kiu method generally is for distance attack and clear the path of the attack...etc
The Short Kiu method is generally for seal off and Lin Sil Dai Da (neutralize with counter)...etc

There are 4 key words about Kiu Faat or the method of using bridge.........

Although this is common information, thanks for sharing. I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. To speak of Kiu Sau and Kiu Faat without a clear context (meaning what concepts and theories and principles are involved with Kiu Sau) leaves us with an empty discussion, only to debate and search for meaning of words and nothing more. Kind of meaningless.

Perhaps that is where you meant to add in information; you know, where you put the "etc..." 's. Personally, I don't know what is supposed to be the information behind "etc."

Lin Siu Daai Da is a saying also used in HFYWCK. I have seen it focused upon within HFY Jong Sau and Sei Muhn training, but so far it has not been mentioned within Kiu Sau training.

Can you share what other systems utilize this phrase as well?

Originally posted by Hendrik
so above is what people are using in 1850's era and continous on......

That's interesting to know that if this phrase is what has been used since the 1600's, that it is still around in the 1850's.

However, what era of Chinese history are you going to focus on? The 1600's (Shaolin Era) or 1800's (Red Boat Era)? How about the 1700's (Secret Society Era)? Do you have a beginning point to begin the discussion?

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik sez:

Kiu Faat can be seperated into two groups.
The Long Kiu method and the Short Kiu method.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-
That could perhaps separate common CLF/califo motions from WC/VT I would think. Different degrees at least.

[Hendrik]

I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. ------

I dont define them. the shao lin did.
If you dont accept what was defined by the shao lin.
How much is needed to define what is a Kiu Sau and Kiu faat, perhaps you can share?


what is your consice definition of Shaolin kiu sau? and where do you got it? If we go to Fujian today, go to Putien or etc. Let see will they recognized your shao lin kiu sau definetion or what I post up there?






To speak of Kiu Sau and Kiu Faat without a clear context (meaning what concepts and theories and principles are involved with Kiu Sau) leaves us with an empty discussion, only to debate and search for meaning of words and nothing more. Kind of meaningless. -------


theories? principles? clear context? empty discussion? meaning less?
the shao lin definition is very clear and pragmatic for me. It said what it is about.

May be you have a different definition which is not empty for you so please share.






That's interesting to know that if this phrase is what has been used since the 1600's, that it is still around in the 1850's. -----


From white crane of Fujian one can traces lots of stuffs down to 1650's.




However, what era of Chinese history are you going to focus on? The 1600's (Shaolin Era) or 1800's (Red Boat Era)? How about the 1700's (Secret Society Era)? Do you have a beginning point to begin the discussion? ---------



Every wave of Localization Evolution has a signature of the past localization evolution.

Kio (fujianese) or Kiu is an old term and very common. One can go back or forth from 1850 to trace it. White Crane of Fujian has very solid record down to mid 1650.

so what is Kio Chiu or kiu Sau's definition in the past and present?
and how its definition localized Evolved. That is very interesting to see.




Lin Siu Daai Da is a saying also used in HFYWCK. I have seen it focused upon within HFY Jong Sau and Sei Muhn training, but so far it has not been mentioned within Kiu Sau training.

Can you share what other systems utilize this phrase as well?------


The "Lin Siu Dai Da implement with Kiu", Wing Chun people such as in YKS or YM or KooLoo or Cho family had used it so much in Chi Sau and everywhere that it becomes a second nature. That is a part of the characteristics of Wing Chun Kuen.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hendrik sez:

Kiu Faat can be seperated into two groups.
The Long Kiu method and the Short Kiu method.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-
That could perhaps separate common CLF/califo motions from WC/VT I would think. Different degrees at least.

Yup, Long Kiu method was generally known as good for attacking. Short Kiu method was generally known as good for defence counter.

Thus, that exist the art such as Hung Gar or Choy Li fut which is called Ch'eong Kiu Dai Ma or long bridge Wide horse stance.


I dont think one needs to be a rocket scientist to learn what is what about the Shao Lin kiu sau....

I was/am also a grand student of Ven. Sek Ko Sam.
http://home.wanadoo.nl/info-kungfu-s...ocan/china.htm

so, I have learn a little about Shao Lin too.


Now, after the basic foundametal definition being cleared. The next is the power generation enginee. Because it directly influence the operation of Kiu Sau.

As I mention on the other post. The Hung Gar's C'uun Kiu or inch bridge is not the same with Wing Chun's Biu Jee even both look finger strike. Hung Gar has 12 kiu sau faat and that is Hung Gar's definately not Wing Chun. this is because Hungar is a Long Bridge Wide stance style in general. Wing Chun is Short Bridge narrow stance style in general.

just some thought.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Savi
Although this is common information, thanks for sharing. I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. To speak of Kiu Sau and Kiu Faat without a clear context (meaning what concepts and theories and principles are involved with Kiu Sau) leaves us with an empty discussion, only to debate and search for meaning of words and nothing more. Kind of meaningless.

Savi,

You are correct!

[Savi]

Originally posted by Hendrik
I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau. ------

I dont define them. the shao lin did.

I didn't say that it was "Your" definition. I responded with "I don't really think you provided"... Already starting to take my posts personally?

Originally posted by Hendrik
If you dont accept what was defined by the shao lin.
How much is needed to define what is a Kiu Sau and Kiu faat, perhaps you can share?

It is not a matter of me accepting what is defined by Shaolin. It is a matter of understanding the basic nature of all things. Kiu Sau is a common element in many Southern Shaolin systems. However, Kiu Sau is different between those systems as well. To define Kiu Sau as simply one thing, and trying to persuade others to believe that a blanket statement is sufficient for all Southern Shaolin systems is a fallacy.

I'll give you an example. HFYWCK has at least 5 different categories of Kiu Sau: Fau Kiu Kiu Sau, Faat Sau Kiu Sau, Deui Ying Kiu Sau, Bong Laap Kiu Sau and Kwan Sau Kiu Sau. Each are a Kiu Sau no doubt, but they are not all the same. Therefore, one definition for all types of Kiu Sau is not even a reality.

Do you think just by understanding the Chinese terminology that you would understand what they truly are? The simple answer is: NO. The complex answer is: HELL NO. Not even possible.

Originally posted by Hendrik
what is your consice definition of Shaolin kiu sau? and where do you got it? If we go to Fujian today, go to Putien or etc. Let see will they recognized your shao lin kiu sau definetion or what I post up there?

For what it's worth, Kiu Sau is what it is to anybody who wants to define it. I won't make that mistake because it is not about a definition. That is far too superficial to say "Kiu Sau is this or that" To have a conversation about Kiu Sau, there must be an understanding of the context surrounding Kiu Sau. Grappling? Recovering horse? Searching the bridge?

Your appeal to authority by saying "If we go to Fujian today, go to Putien or etc. Let see will they recognized your shao lin kiu sau definetion" is meaningless. Where exactly is "etc." Hendrik? Have you been there? And pretty much what you are saying is that a "place" is an authority? Wrong focus.

Originally posted by Hendrik
theories? principles? clear context? empty discussion? meaning less?
the shao lin definition is very clear and pragmatic for me. It said what it is about.

May be you have a different definition which is not empty for you so please share.

So again then, please share EXACTLY what you have recognized to be the definition of Kiu Sau.

"According to Nam Shao Lin, Fujian,

forearm was called Kiu or bridge."

If this is the definition you are providing, then either you have made a huge leap in your kung fu, or you simply do not understand Kiu Sau.

For me, Kiu Sau is defined by the Space Time and Energy of the given moment. If it is not needed, there is no Kiu Sau. What is the context? Ultimately, what is the *principle* behind Kiu Sau? Based on what you have written so far, you and I are far from that level of discussion. Heck, even I am far from understanding the principle of Kiu Sau. I do, however, have a good familiarity of the concepts and theories behind Kiu Sau. At this level of discussion and experience, you and I can argue all we want.

Originally posted by Hendrik
From white crane of Fujian one can traces lots of stuffs down to 1650's.

So your point is that White Crane of Fujian is the ultimate root of Kiu Sau? Is that your point? That you have something and I don't? Keep in mind this conversation should be a discussion about Kiu Sau - not about what you have and I dont - and not about you vs me.

Originally posted by Hendrik
However, what era of Chinese history are you going to focus on? The 1600's (Shaolin Era) or 1800's (Red Boat Era)? How about the 1700's (Secret Society Era)? Do you have a beginning point to begin the discussion? ---------



Every wave of Localization Evolution has a signature of the past localization evolution.

You still didn't answer my question.

Originally posted by Hendrik
The "Lin Siu Dai Da implement with Kiu", Wing Chun people such as in YKS or YM or KooLoo or Cho family had used it so much in Chi Sau and everywhere that it becomes a second nature. That is a part of the characteristics of Wing Chun Kuen.

Really? Then, instead of focusing on the apparent fact that Kiu Sau utilizes Lin Siu Dai Da, fill us in on HOW and WHY it is implemented into Kiu Sau. What is the focus for LSDD in Kiu Sau? That would bring more meaning into the discussion.

The bottom line Hendrik, if you have not experienced Kiu Sau from a good number of the systems from Southern Shaolin to truly understand Kiu Sau, your "provided" defintion will not do anybody or anything involved, justice. Certainly going by word of mouth or the written word will only cut yourself short from the truth we all seek, IMO.

[anerlich]

I don't really think you provided a clear and concise definition of Shaolin Kiu Sau.

I don't think anybody on this forum ever has, nor did the authors of Mastering Kung Fu.

[taltos]

Originally posted by anerlich
I don't think anybody on this forum ever has, nor did the authors of Mastering Kung Fu.

{sigh}

PLEASE PLEASE Let's not let this thread degenerate into nonrelevent statements and attackes, expecially on parties not present to defend themselves.

I think this thread could go somewhere if we just leave out grudges.

-Levi

[Savi]

Literal translations (ie. bridge hand) and general details (forearm usage) about Kiu Sau give general understanding about surface-level knowledge. It is too vague to the point where everyone from every style around the world can say they use it in their own way. This can very well be true based on the literal translation and general detail provided so far.

From my HFY Kiu Sau experience, developing Kiu Sau skill allows the practitioner the ability of slowing down the opponent while maintaining our own structure, influenced by our basis on our structural guidelines (WC Formula).

The whole idea is to be able to protect our centerline and position just by using the Kiu Sau. When the Kiu Sau is properly developed, it becomes very clear when it is necessary to move your centerline or not. Simply doing a bracing motion "just because" is seen as excessive use of resources from an efficiency perspective.

Shaolin traits...
Kiu Sau itself is a reflection of the Shaolin nature of Fuhk, which is to subdue and control agression. This one characteristic of subduing the attacker first involves slowing them down initially through bridge control and manipulation; second, by capitalizing and reinforcing said control via kahm na (grappling applications). This nature of subduing was very much a part of the Shaolin monk's Buddhist perspective, and is actually discussed in MKF on page 25 beginning in the Chi Sim section. If you can read German, you should also buy GM Hoffman's book: Weng Chun Kuen, the soft power of Shaolin. Last I recall, an english version is in the works.

The alternative to kahm na/chin na is obviously attacking with strikes and traps; a common theme in Wing Chun.

Ultimately, Kiu Sau is not a technique at all, and is certainly not a buzzword. Kiu Sau represents many of the physical manifestations of the natures required to protect one's personal harmony. In Chi Sim Weng Chun, there are 18 ways to express the natures of Kiu Sau. Other Southern Shaolin systems have their own way too.

Those other systems (from Fujian) who have Kiu Sau intrinsic to them, aside from Hung Fa Yi and Chi Sim Weng Chun are Chu Ga Tong Long (Preying Mantis), Ng Jou Kuen (Five Ancestor Fist), Bak Mei (White Eyebrow), Lung Ying Kuen (Dragon Fist), and yes... Bai He (White Crane). There are probably more, but these are the ones I know of.

Kiu Sau is not exclusive to Wing Chun (even though some do not identify with Kiu Sau for the most part), yet on the other hand we have to recognize that Kiu Sau is a HUGE part of the "Shaolin Connection" and is SO much more than a mere "bridge hand" using the middle of the forearm. It has very strong prominence in HFY and Chi Sim, and exists in some form or another in the Red Boat Era Wing Chun; ie. Heaven Chi Sau.

Originally posted by anerlich
I don't think anybody on this forum ever has, nor did the authors of Mastering Kung Fu.

That is of course, your opinion. MKF was written for the experienced. Not for the latter. Read the Introduction on page vii. If you would like to share your experiences or knowledge of Kiu Sau, that would help in the discussion. If you have no identified Kiu Sau experience, I can understand your quoted comment above.

[anerlich]

MKF was written for the experienced.

If you have no identified Kiu Sau experience, I can understand your quoted comment above.

LOL. I read page vii, and stand by my original remarks.

So I have to have experience to understand MKF, but if I don't have that experience (in your estimation, if that is worth anything) I might as well not bother? Someone has to show me the secret handshake? Is this some oriental-flavoured, dumbed-down version of the Da Vinci Code?

As for "not here to defend themselves", I've seen Richard Louwenhagen on here often enough. And plenty of those not present were attacked in the book (page 47, since we seem to like quoting page numbers). If you don't want criticism, don't publish.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Ultimately, Kiu Sau is not a technique at all, and is certainly not a buzzword. Kiu Sau represents many of the physical manifestations of the natures required to protect one's personal harmony." (Savi)

Kiu sao is bridging hand techniques that manipulate the fighting situation to your advantage from a certain distance from the opponent.

Best to leave the harmony stuff to Lao Tsu and Mahatma Gandhi.


"In Chi Sim Weng Chun, there are 18 ways to express the natures of Kiu Sau. Other Southern Shaolin systems have their own way too....Kiu Sau is not exclusive to Wing Chun (even though some do not identify with Kiu Sau for the most part), yet on the other hand we have to recognize that Kiu Sau is a HUGE part of the "Shaolin Connection" and is SO much more than a mere "bridge hand" using the middle of the forearm." (Savi)

The leaders of Weng Chun themselves will tell you how the kiu sao flow from the middle of the forearm - along with the appropriate footwork - can lead to armlocks, takedowns, punches, and kicks.


"It has very strong prominence in HFY and Chi Sim, and exists in some form or another in the Red Boat Era Wing Chun; ie. Heaven Chi Sau." (Savi)

And kiu sao has a strong prominence in TWC, and certain other lineages that come from Yip Man as well...to name just a few styles in the Wing Chun world.

[taltos]

Originally posted by anerlich
If you don't want criticism, don't publish.

He didn't, so I don't understand your point.

-Levi

[anerlich]

He didn't, so I don't understand your point.

Richard L was a co-writer of MKF, a published book, so he DID publish.

Got it, ace?

[Hendrik]

1, It is not a matter of me accepting what is defined by Shaolin. It is a matter of understanding the basic nature of all things.


2, Kiu Sau is a common element in many Southern Shaolin systems. However, Kiu Sau is different between those systems as well.

3, To define Kiu Sau as simply one thing, and trying to persuade others to believe that a blanket statement is sufficient for all Southern Shaolin systems is a fallacy. --------


1, HOw can one understand the basic nature of --- ALL --- things from Kiu Sau?

For example: if we talk about reparing a motorcycle. we have to be specific and narrow down the focus to reparing a motorcycle. may be break down into the engine, the wheels.....etc

Now,
Some one might want to write a book called. The Zen of reparing motorcycle. That is respectable for the person's creativity. HOwever, that is not about reparing motor cycle anymore since the main subject has shifted to become both Zen and reparing motorcycle.

Reading a book about reparing motorcycle will lead one to understand how to repare a motorcycle.

Reading a book about Zen of Reparing motorcycle, one is not sure what is the outcome.


2. True.

Kiu Sau is a common element in many Southern Shaolin systems. However, Kiu Sau is different between those systems as well.

So, in order to study what is kiu sau. we need to understand the common element which is the common denominator of what is kiu sau. That is what the posted above.




3, There is no trying to persuade others to believe what is what in this post.

Using the example of reparing motorcycle again. I post what the motorcyle is about.

HOwever, if you read the book Zen of reparing motorcycle and expect any technical book of reparing motorcycle as juicy as Zen and all things. you will be disappointed. Because the technical book of reparing motorcycle is going to limit the scope on only motor cycle and its operation.



I'll give you an example. HFYWCK has at least 5 different categories of Kiu Sau: Fau Kiu Kiu Sau, Faat Sau Kiu Sau, Deui Ying Kiu Sau, Bong Laap Kiu Sau and Kwan Sau Kiu Sau.

Each are a Kiu Sau no doubt, but they are not all the same. Therefore, one definition for all types of Kiu Sau is not even a reality.



Your ancestors can make the decision on how the kiu sau evolve in your lineage. Similar to a automobile manufacturing company can called thier car 4 runner, Camry..... C220, E320.....

HOwever, I am talking about what the automobile engineering association define about a Car.

As for what is reality. One certainly can neglect what the automobile engineering association or the IEEE if it is electronics standard.

For the Automobile engineering Association, a car has 4 wheel, a car has an enginee, a Car have gear box. A car can have 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive.

NOw, if one's reality of a car is Got to be "Lexus" ---- it has leather seat, it has GPS, it has bose sound system. remote control.......etc that is varid for one car company.

however the Automobile engineering association will not define car that way.




Do you think just by understanding the Chinese terminology that you would understand what they truly are?

The simple answer is: NO. The complex answer is: HELL NO. Not even possible. For what it's worth, Kiu Sau is what it is to anybody who wants to define it. I won't make that mistake because it is not about a definition.



what is the purpose of language?

Those ancient Chinese wrote in a very specific way.

if one think --- understanding the Chinese terminology and definition of Kiu Sau in Southern Shao Lin Chinese martial art doesnt trully describe what the subject it is.

Then, what to understand?





That is far too superficial to say "Kiu Sau is this or that" To have a conversation about Kiu Sau, there must be an understanding of the context surrounding Kiu Sau. Grappling? Recovering horse? Searching the bridge?


For one who takes the book title --- Zen of the motor cycle repair and the truth of the all things of motor cycel repair .
Will certianly have a view of all those technical motor cycle repair books not satified.




Your appeal to authority by saying "If we go to Fujian today, go to Putien or etc. Let see will they recognized your shao lin kiu sau definetion" is meaningless. Where exactly is "etc." Hendrik? Have you been there? And pretty much what you are saying is that a "place" is an authority? Wrong focus.




You say on top that

Do you think just by understanding the Chinese terminology that you would understand what they truly are? ....... The complex answer is: HELL NO.

if you are right. Then, Go to Fujian to the source of Nan Shao LIn and test all the hypothesis. To find out what is proper.

IT has nothing todo with authority. IT has all todo with find what what is what. That simple.




So again then, please share EXACTLY what you have recognized to be the definition of Kiu Sau. If this is the definition you are providing, then either you have made a huge leap in your kung fu, or you simply do not understand Kiu Sau.


The definition of Kiu Sau from Southern Shao Lin is independent of hendrik or his kung fu. whether hendrik exist in this world or not doesnt change the definition of Kiu Sau from Southern Shao Lin.



For me, Kiu Sau is defined by the Space Time and Energy of the given moment. If it is not needed, there is no Kiu Sau. What is the context? Ultimately, what is the *principle* behind Kiu Sau?


Great to know your definition. why not?





Based on what you have written so far, you and I are far from that level of discussion.

Heck, even I am far from understanding the principle of Kiu Sau. I do, however, have a good familiarity of the concepts and theories behind Kiu Sau.


At this level of discussion and experience, you and I can argue all we want.

Great to know that you are certain about your understanding of the things you study.

definition has nothing to do with "level" or arguement. just definition.





So your point is that White Crane of Fujian is the ultimate root of Kiu Sau? Is that your point? That you have something and I don't? Keep in mind this conversation should be a discussion about Kiu Sau - not about what you have and I dont - and not about you vs me. You still didn't answer my question.
Really?


????




Then, instead of focusing on the apparent fact that Kiu Sau utilizes Lin Siu Dai Da, fill us in on HOW and WHY it is implemented into Kiu Sau. What is the focus for LSDD in Kiu Sau? That would bring more meaning into the discussion.


Why do you need to ask me ?

since you know it all --- about the time space energy etc.
and you post the following.




The bottom line Hendrik, if you have not experienced Kiu Sau from a good number of the systems from Southern Shaolin to truly understand Kiu Sau, your "provided" defintion will not do anybody or anything involved, justice. Certainly going by word of mouth or the written word will only cut yourself short from the truth we all seek, IMO.



I am reading a motor cycle reparing technical book. Not Zen in motor cycle reparing. Saying OMMMM is not going to fix the damping system of the motorcycle. and I dont think one needs the Zen experience OMMM or ride all the motorcycle in the world to fix a flat tire.

If one want to say OMMM while fix the motor cycle, that is fine with me. If one think just say OMMM and the motor cycle will be fix that is fine with me. ( I just dont do it that way but can accepts others thought).