Difference between IMA's and Judo/Jujitsu/Wrestling and Shui Chiao?

[Fu-Pow]

I'm gonna throw out a hypothesis and I'm wondering if you guys agree or disagree.

The difference in strategy between IMA's and the arts mentioned in the title is that:

-IMA's unbalance the opponent before issuing force.

-The mentioned arts issue force to unbalance the opponent.


P.S. I have never taken Judo/Jujitsu/Wrestling/Chinese Wrestling so please enlighten me if I am way off base here.

[Water Dragon]

Incorrect. It is darn near impossible to throw somebody without first stealing their balance. Do a web search on Kuzushi

Kuzushi exists in all the grappling arts, there's just more written about it in Judo.

[MasterKiller]

http://judoinfo.com/kuzushi1.htm

[Meat Shake]

I think the main difference is more or less in the training methodology.
"Internal" arts tend to focus more heavily on structure and alignment...
Not to say "external" arts dont, just that the internal arts have more emphasis on it.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
http://judoinfo.com/kuzushi1.htm

Go to the "examples" section of that page (it wouldn't let me post a link) and there is a picture of a forward throw.

Do you think that you would see this sort of thing in IMA's? He is essentially supporting this guys entire body weight and I'm guessing he's throwing him forward.

This seems a lot more use of strength then you would see in IMA's.

At least in my experience.

[Meat Shake]

Hmm...
I dont know all that much about IMA... but I know of a technique called "man carries fish on his back" or something similar, that entails you locking your opponents arm and then hoisting them onto your back with the locked arm.

[norther practitioner]

Sounds like Snake creeps down in Yang taiji.

[unkokusai]

I love these names!

[Shooter]

Meat Shake, it's the same kinda elbow-lock you'd do if you were peeling a guy's top arm off your head while escaping RNC...except it's done while standing.

not snake-creeps-down

[Suntzu]

KKM made sooooooo much sense......

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by Shooter
Meat Shake, it's the same kinda elbow-lock you'd do if you were peeling a guy's top arm off your head while escaping RNC...except it's done while standing.

not snake-creeps-down

My escape from a RNC involves first making whoever is holding me go verticle, and then proceeding to smash them back downward to the ground. No peeling necessary.

The lock Im speaking of is a shoulder lock in which your (left arm for example) is holding your opponents right wrist. You are back to back...
Im too tired to explain... Ill just plagurize good ol Dr. Yangs explanation of the technique when I get home.

[Merryprankster]

Lousy hypothesis, commonly heard from people who like to think what they are doing is better than everything else.

The only differences between those arts are:

1. Where they came from.
2. Stylistic or rule based preferences.
3. Training methodologies.


The exact same skill sets, re: grappling principles, will be developed regardless of which of these arts you take. Specifics may vary, but the sensitivity, coordination and mat sense will be gained regardless.

[Tak]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Do you think that you would see this sort of thing in IMA's? He is essentially supporting this guys entire body weight and I'm guessing he's throwing him forward.

This seems a lot more use of strength then you would see in IMA's.

A shoulder throw like the one in the picture is very conformant to IMA principles. It uses mechanics and leverage, not brute strength. I've seen little kids and small women throw large adults like this with no problem (as long as the height difference isn't too great).

[shaolin kungfu]

lard nar?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow



Go to the "examples" section of that page (it wouldn't let me post a link) and there is a picture of a forward throw.

Do you think that you would see this sort of thing in IMA's? He is essentially supporting this guys entire body weight and I'm guessing he's throwing him forward.

This seems a lot more use of strength then you would see in IMA's.

At least in my experience.

that throw is seionage. you off balance before the throw, so his balance was already going forward onto the thrower. the thrower will pop his hips and twist his waist to send the guy onto the ground. It's not strength based at all.


Now, having said that, strength does come into play during competitions and such, natrually. That would also likely apply to an IMA throwing competition, if there were to ever be one.