Traditional Southern Lion Dance

[LionDancer]

How many lion dance troupes continue with traditional southern lion dancing instead of the newer malaysian style?

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[David Jamieson]

Hey-

for competition, the malaysian style is pretty popular. mostly because of the high jongs and the wire walking etc. It's a great show!

However, to the best of my knowledge, in all the Kungfu schools I've seen or visited, they stick pretty much to the traditional routines using the Crane Mountain and Buddha Mountain type southern lions.

A few clubs do both, the competition style as seen in the Genti cup videos and events and the traditional style at new years and auspicious days.

It's nice to see a competent team perform in the streets. A good lion dance shows the goodness of the Kungfu training that drives it

cheers

[mantis108]

Do you mean protocol and ettiquette (entering temple, greeting another lion, etc...) ? The design of the lion (Futshan vs Hokshan, color code etc...) ? Or Routines (special "Chiang")?

It would help if the question is more specific. Personally, I think a "traditional" lion dance is loaded with protocols, ettiquette and symbolism. Not at all a fancy acrobatic sports fest. The neo lion dance to me is like Wushu to Kung Fu. Looks good but is devoided of true spirit.

Mantis108

[LionDancer]

I agree that optically, the new style is flashy but my opinion of traditional lion dancing primarily focus on the liondancer and the martial art skills displayed through the many stances and 'life-like' (sang) movements of the lion, i.e., from the awakening to the stalking to the eating and sleeping of the lion. The movements of the lion should not be one where the lion appears to be frolicing but rather of a lion with strong, decisive and life-like movements.

This would also include some of the traditional puzzles and jongs as opposed to popular 'poles' today. The lion itself of the past was also heavier and larger (typically size A1 or A2) compared with ones common today. The traditional puzzles and jongs (special chiangs) required the liondancer to better display their martial art skills as opposed to today's popular poles where one balances themselves and jumps from one to another. This is not to say that the newer styled liondancers lack in skill but rather the setting does not permit an adequate display of them.

I think Mantis108 says it best, the lion should not be devoid of true spirit.... I guess my true question is this:

the traditional style appears to be forgotten by many and is not as popular as before. How can we revive this and promote it?

[David Jamieson]

I am not certain that a revival is what is required.

There is lots of traditional lion dance going on. I still think there are more traditional lion dance teams than there are the former.

It has a lot to do with what people want to see too. There are some kungfu schools who did not lion dance befire and now they do. When they first start out as a team, they are usually not so good and it takes time for everyone to learn the lion dance.

This results on some people seein glion dance in a traditional light as well, frankly boring. But if a team works hard and takes some chances and has dedicated members, they can develop some routines that require a lot of skill.

But if that team becomes complacent and happy with just walking around in a puppet shaking the head and getting lai si and chiangs from everywhere... well...

THere are definitely some very good traditional teams doing lion dance out there though.

cheers

[LionDancer]

Agree with what you are saying but it still seems to me that alot of 'dancers' now a days still focus on the newer styles.....

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Agreed...there is even one team in my city that does not even get a Chang...the climax and whole point of the lion dance...where good luck is brought to all.

GHD

[brothernumber9]

so what exactly are the newer styles and what are the older styles?

I speculate you imply that "new" means the set jong routines and perhaps even some of the set floor routines where there may be an abundance of crowd pleasing tricks but weak expression from the actual movements of the lion? still what would older styles be? what is characteristic of an "old" style vs a "new" style outside of expression?

what is a recognizable standard that all lion dance should abide by, or should there be some standards in sub divisions of lion dance, for example northern, fut san, and hok san. if so what would they be? or should it go even higher, in that particular shools or pugilisms should have a standard only within thier own style?

I don't mean to ask so many questions at one time. but there are visibly different interperatations as to what lion dance is supposed to look like. I personally believe the core of any lion dance is in expression, the ability to make an audience forget that they are looking at two people in an outfit and make them see only one creature that can portray in an obvious fashion expression and storytelling (hopefully with good kungfu footwork).

[mantis108]

It is wonderful to meet someone who has the understanding of the old school Lion Dancing.

The fundamentals of the southern lion dance is butchered because of sportification of lion dance.

First off, the new style lion design is changed due to the fact that acrobatics similar to the northern lion are added. The body is much much short in the new type of southern lions. I usually call this the Southern head northern tail. In other word it is a crossed breed. Once upon a time, when southern lion dance is a showcase of footwork deeply rooted (pun intended) in the stancework is now replaced by often strolling type of footwork. I am not sure about how the strolling footwork works with the drum. In traditional LD, the lion's footwork goes hand in hand with the drum scores. There are the 3 stars, 5 stars, 7 stars, etc...Therefore there are 3 stars footwork, and so on so forth, for the lion. The 7 emotions of the lion are all expressed through the help of the footwork. Bold, strong and expressive type of the footwork, as oppose to strolling, is to show the courage the lion. What does the new style footwork shows? Frolics of a puppy or a kitten perhaps?

As for the Chiangs, the short body almost wipes out the reminance of the southern roots. The saying "southern boat and northern horse" shows the importance of boat life in the south. The long body (and the stieady footwork) of the southern lion reflect this important element of southern society namely the boat people who often test the lion by placing Chiangs on the water and the lion has to reach for it from the bow of the boat which could be quite a distance. Northern lion doesn't need that because of dry land nor does it has Chiang as a test of courage. Also a lot of the weapon or symbolic Chiangs are not performed due to sporty show of acrobatics is more crowd pleasing or to limit the public displace of "secret society knowledge" (ie Tai Kung Diew Yu Chiang - Grand Duke fishing), which were common in the south.

Traditional southern lion dance is about culture. Cultivation needs time and tender loving care. It is to build "spirit" which "houses the people". The purpose of sport today is to dull people's senses because the chief aim is to ENTERTAIN and ENTERTAIN ONLY. The level of the traditional and new lion dances are heavan and earth apart. But then to the untrained eyes, there is no difference. Oh well... it is the hands of time, what can we say?

Mantis108

[WinterPalm]

My kwoon has a traditional lion dance team that I've been fortunate enough to participate in. We do some acrobatic, or flashy stuff, like jumping onto the tails horse stance or bow stance, lots of jumps but it is still traditional with a chiang and meant to bring prosperity and good will to the establishment we are performing for.
It is very fun and brings a certain exhileration with performing a routine that is difficult when brought off well.

[LionDancer]

Same holds true here, to meet someone who appreciates and understands the meaning behind the old school ways. I would add that one major difference is in the bold decisive moves of the lion which also represents the pride of the lion as well as its courage. One can say or translate this to also represent the pride of the performers / troupe / school in that the culture remains intact and continues to thrive. The lion peers regally at onlookers and does not look upwards typically with its mouth wide. With high chaings, the lion attempt to attack it from above or at least from the side instead of from below.....

Mantis108 pointed out 1 thing I did not focus on and that is the body/tail of the lion. Traditional ones have the much longer ones which also has meaning to it...... but thats for another time and fellow traditionalist.......

Mantis108, these two are for you....

[LionDancer]

part II

[David Jamieson]

nice pics LD!

How does that pole work? It's hard to see. Is it attached to his belt and he's hoisted like a crain? Or is there a seat or cushion on the end of the pole?

cheers

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by LionDancer
Same holds true here, to meet someone who appreciates and understands the meaning behind the old school ways. I would add that one major difference is in the bold decisive moves of the lion which also represents the pride of the lion as well as its courage. One can say or translate this to also represent the pride of the performers / troupe / school in that the culture remains intact and continues to thrive. The lion peers regally at onlookers and does not look upwards typically with its mouth wide. With high chaings, the lion attempt to attack it from above or at least from the side instead of from below.....

Mantis108 pointed out 1 thing I did not focus on and that is the body/tail of the lion. Traditional ones have the much longer ones which also has meaning to it...... but thats for another time and fellow traditionalist.......

Mantis108, these two are for you....

It also depends on whether performing Fut Shan or Hoc San lion. The Hoc San will or should be more bird like in movement and not near as bold as the Fut Shan.
Although the ideal way to approach the chang is dead on or from the top as you say...the reality of most situations (at least in our neck of the woods with winter and all) in traditional lion dance for businesses at new years or august moon festival is that for heaven greens, the lion will most likely have to approach and grab the greens from underneath....there is really nothing wrong with this.
For a pics and videos, you can visit our site at Shaolin West Kung Fu Kwoon

[LionDancer]

The lion dancer has a kung-fu sash and is raised by the people you see around him. The pole is actually then tucked in between the sash and the person at an angle. We then straighten the pole and the lion dancer rises in the air while curling the leg around the pole. That is how we did those moves. There are no seats at the end of the pole, it is just as you see it, an ordinary wooden pole.... When done, the pole tilts and the lion dancer jumps off. We did that to go after high chaings instead of having the lion dancer stand on a table top platform held by people underneath. It does become difficult and strenuous on the performer after a while because you need to lock your leg around the pole, balance yourself as the pole is not always steady, and most important, continue to play the lion head animately.....

One year, we had two liondancers go after a two high chaings laid out in a plum blossom pattern.

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