San Shou=BAd Reffing?

[jimmy23]

I went to see my first San Shou event this weekend called Art of War . There were some pretty good fighters there, some very close fights, and CungLe made an appearence and did a little demo. Overall, I had fun, but...
The reffing was atrocious. ONe ref was an older caucasian guy with a kung fu beard who didnt seem to know the first thing about how to protect the fighters. In the very first match one fighterkicked another square in the cup , it was unintentional but very obvious. THE ref not only didnt see what everyonein the stands did, he asked the judges at ringside if they ahd seen afoul, and only did that because a few people in the crowd were very vocal about calling him out on missing such an obvious foul.

When he called for breaks, he wasnt loud at all, and didnt get in between the fighters to pull them apart. Fighters would be falling throuhg the ropes and he would be meekly saying "break". Ive been to many full contact and MMA matches, and this was the second sorst job by a ref that Ive ever seen.

The second ref was a little better, but there were some very questionable calls made by him also. During John Dixsons fight, they called a throw for Dixsons opponant ( a big fella with very fast hands, scary dude) when dixosns knee never went down , and he was always incontrol of his balance.

OVerall, a good event, San Shou is exciting to watch and the fighters were all in shape and skilled. BUt, thew organizers of this event should appoint refs on ring experience , not on kung fu rank, becuase the fighters, and the fans, deserve better than what we saw Saturday night.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Jimmy,

while you certainly are entitled to an opinion, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents.

From your description, I'll make the assumption that the referee was Mike Barry.
BUt, thew organizers of this event should appoint refs on ring experience , not on kung fu rank,

Mike has been refereeing in the sanshou scene since the very beginning in the U.S. and full contact fighting before that. Everyone in sanshou knows Mike's credentials and there was a reason he was there. (and on top of that he is a kungfu master and a successful fighter from his days.) Your comment about his kungfu "rank" justifying ring experience is not valid.

THE ref not only didnt see what everyonein the stands did, he asked the judges at ringside if they ahd seen afoul

Refs are human. He didn't see it. He checks with the other officials. Where is the problem? That is the reason there are corner judges. There should be more than one set of qualified eyes on a ring.

Getting between fighters after calling break isn't a smart thing to do. Its a good way to get popped in the head. They are supposed to obey his commands. break. stop fighting keep your guard up and step back. I've never saw judo refs split up fighters, Does a football ref start grabbing guys in the middle of a pileup? Unless the ref believes that someone is in danger, he should not interfere.

Again, you're entitled to your view, but by and large Mike is a good referee. Keep watching Jimmy. don't make a decision based on one night.

I do not wish to speak badly about the USASKF but I think there is much to be desired in the way of fight promotion.

[lkfmdc]

I've know Mike Barry for years and don't have a problem with him but I am going to disagree with you

A fighter who doesn't get between the fighters is not protecting them, case in point at another event this weekend, a fighter flagrantly fouled, foot ball punting to the groin, the ref is like 3 feet away, calls break but stands there, the fighter who got fouled is holding his groin, the other A$$ HOLE runs up and then foot ball punts him in the face. Getting your nose broken in three places from a foul that the ref should have stopped is unacceptable, ref's get PAID to get "popped in the head"

ANd actually, Mike was much better when he wasn't certified by China and used common sense, since he got his IWUF license, he has been ref'ing like the Chinese = poorly

[ShaolinTiger00]

Sifu Ross,

Your instance this weekend would DEFINATELY fit it the "Unless the ref believes that someone is in danger, he should not interfere. " category. What the Hell was that about??? (why the blatant punt?)

[lkfmdc]

when Muay Thai people can't block side kicks and get hit like 20 times per round, they seem to get angry, actually, this guy in particular is a PUNK who does this all the time, he can't win because he has no skill and so he CHEATS, this one was so flagrant it became an issue obviously

but if you dont get in between, this kind of thing can happen

I am USA Boxing certified in addition to having done 100's of San Shou and Kickbxoing fights, there is a reason to always be close

[Suntzu]

Now lkfmdc u lucky this aint the NFL b'cuz u would be fined all over the place...

and as for the punt kickin azzhole... they shoulda beat his azz in the locker room

[ShaolinTiger00]

A punk in kickboxing? say it ain't so!

[Xebsball]

I think the refs of UFC and Pride suck too...
Not that i seriously care for either San Shou, UFC or Pride since what i do is not what you would commonly see in the respective formats from both the final objective and given path to achievement points of view... stuff

[jimmy23]

"Mike has been refereeing in the sanshou scene since the very beginning in the U.S. and full contact fighting before that. "

then San SHou has a very bad problem with the quality of threir refs. in EVERY combat sport (Kickboxing, Muay Thai, , boxing and MMA) the Refs job is to jump in and pull fighters apart while loudly giving his commands. THis guy didht do that, he didnt position himself well at all to see what was going, and he missed a huge, obvious, foul. Ive wqorked with many pro boxing refs, Ive worked 6 professional MMA events as a judge, and a ref should never, ever, have to ask the judges what just happened in the ring right in front of him. A ref should also take control when his duties require him to, this ref consistently failed to do that. And, the ref exchanged words with a loud ,obnoxious audience member when the person loudly denounced him for missing the obvious foul. Very unprofessional. You ever see a pro boxing judge arguing with an audience member during a match? What about in MMA?

I had assumed the guy was just a rookie to full contact events. To see that he wasnt really gives me avery bad impression of the organization of this event, and of San SHou in general. THe sprot itself is exciting, but the professionalism of the officials needs a lot of work. I say this from the perspective of someone who has been around the fight game, in many capacities, for a long time.

"Keep watching Jimmy. don't make a decision based on one night."

I wont, and I truly hope to see more San SHou shows in this area.[

[Suntzu]

You ever see a pro boxing judge arguing with an audience member during a match? What about in MMA?

that was a coach…
plus the fact that USA San Shou is a small and tight group, were u are so familiar with each other that stuff like that ( telling a caoch to let me do my job ) is bound to happen… plus refs argue with coaches all the time… Football, baseball, boxing, whatever... actually i was entertained by that lil segment...

[jimmy23]

oh I found it entertaining, esp since the guy was so loud everyone on the block heard him , and the ref deserved a reaming for his mistake. IT just wasnt very professional, thats my point.

[SanShou Guru]

For the record, the referee (Mike Berry) was not arguing with someone in the crowd but the fouled fighter’s coach that was berating him about the missed call as well as the eight count that he gave for it. Mike Berry explained (unnecessarily) that he gives the eight count if he is unsure of the foul, then checks with the judges to see if they saw a foul. When one confirmed the foul he rescinded the 8 count so the fighter would not lose a point and gave a caution to the other fighter.

Also I believe the impact was not to the groin but the lower intestines or blatter. The reaction was not that of someone hit in the groin since he was holding his lower stomach and not his groin. But if below the belt means belly button down than it was indeed low.

I was warned for low blows three times by Mike Barry in the first event he ref’ed in NY in 1995 and after the fight I asked the fighter id they we low and he said none of them were. I lost that fight by a close decision and those warnings cannot have helped so I have had my own beefs with Mike in the past.

Mike Barry does need to be much louder. When I ref bouts I’m almost always hoarse the next day. I lost my voice altogether after the 50+ fights I ref’d at Cung’s August event.

[lkfmdc]

Well, if you want to know the truth, in San Diego in 2000 I round kicked the OUTER thigh and got called for a groin shot by Mike Barry, I like him but I also wonder some times what he is looking at....

And the coach in question once screamed at me when his fighter got side kicked in the GUT which is legal for those not aware....

"below the belt" or "low blow" is a term from boxing and American above the waist kickboxing and is also pretty meaningless in San Shou

In thai, as long as you don't hit the actual equipment, it's legal, San Shou definitions vary but I prefer this one for it

[jimmy23]

cool, i couldnt tell jsut how low the shot was, but it was definately periously close to the goonies.

Lkfmdc, this is a repost from the mma.tv thread on side kicks, Im hoping youll see one of these

"lhfmdc, i was at that show, and i know the fight your talking about, very sad.
I really noticed the side kick working that night, in several fights. How does the San SHou side kick differ from a rtraditional side kick? How does it chamber, is there alot of hip rotation, is it more of what the traditionalists call a "snap" side kick as opposed to a "thrust" side kick?

Inquiring minds want to know, I really enjoyed seeing that attack used so well in that enviroment...... "

[ShaolinTiger00]

I love the fact that MMA guys trash CMA but they go crazy when they see how we use the side kick to such a great advantage in the san shou arsenal.

no offense Jimmy We can't be giving out trade secrets!