Are Wong Fei-Hung’s Hung Gar and Fung Siu-Ching’s Wing Chun of true Southern Shaolin

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Are Wong Fei-Hung’s Hung Gar and Fung Siu-Ching’s Wing Chun of true Southern Shaolin Jee Shim lineage?

This perplexing question arose out of the confusing and illogical situation I have found myself with the conflicting histories that I have read about my own Wing Chun lineage.

This is where Wing Chun was supposed to have risen from the southern rebels operating out of the operatic red junks and where there is strong evidence that the rebels of the operatic red junks took part in the Taiping Rebellion.

If this is true then it would make nonsense of the later story of Ng Jung-So, who was consider a one time senior leader of an important Wing Chun lineage, to have taken part in the opium trade that devastated China from the second half of the 19th Century to the first half of the 20th Century. After all the Taiping Rebellion main aim was to stop the opium trade and the social and economic ruination it was causing. So I knowing that Ng Jung-So was a true descendent of Southern Shaolin Jee Shim believe that he would not have taken part in the opium trade.

Can this be said about Wong Fei-Hung and Fung Siu-Ching? The story is that Wong Fei-Hung had once been employed by the Ching Imperial Government to lead and train a large regiment of Ching soldiers in the Province of Guangdong. As to Fung Siu-Ching, he was supposed to have been employed by the Ching Imperial Government as a marshal. The job involved the capture of state designate criminals, and yes you guessed it meaning the capture of southern rebels seeking to overthrow the Ching and restoring the former Ming.

The dilemma I am having is that if Wong Fei-Hung of Hung Gar and Fung Siu-Ching of Wing Chun are true descendents of Southern Shaolin Jee Shim as their lineage histories purported them to be then both would not have cooperated with the Imperial Ching Government in fighting and capturing of other Southern Shaolin rebels who are of the same lineage of Southern Shaolin and in particular of the same Jee Shim’s lineage.

Wai-Sing Fung

[Andreas Hoffman]

Hello,
according to our history from different successors of Fung Siu Ching, he was never a ching marshal.
My ancestor Fung Siu Ching learned from San Gam, teached on the theater Baat Wo in Gong Chau, later in the city Xi Chui and finally he teached professional daytime and nightime in Fatshan.
Rich families, especially Ma Pat Leung and Wong family paid for Fung Siu Ching. So he concentrates on teaching weng chun kuen.
All his students who learned a longer time according our family:
Fung Tin, Lo Kai Tung , Lo Yam Nam,Ma Chung Yee,Wong Sap Yat,Chan lan Lim,Wong Si, Ah Chok,Nam Hoi,Tang Yin Kay,Dung On, Dung Jik,Tang Suen.
I researched and learned weng chun kuen from different families in China: Tang Suen, Dung Jik-Dung On, Lo Kai Tung-Lo Yam Nam.
All families are teaching the Southern Shaolin-chi sim-Red Boat-Fatshan history of weng chun kuen and the biography of Fung Siu Ching described before.

Andreas Hoffmann
www.wengchun.net

[Ming Fai]

It would be quite naïve to think that Wong Fei-Hung would really have cared about all this... So 200 years ago we belonged to the same style and fought the Manchurians... big deal, after such a long time it doesn't really mean anything. Times have changed, in 19th century China no one was trying to "Restore the Ming" anymore. There were indeed revolutionaries who wanted to overthrow the corrupt Qing government, but most of the people in those days were hoping that China could modernize and reform under Qing rule.

Furthermore, Wong Fei-Hung came from a rather poor family and joining the army would have been a good chance to acquire a better social status. It is said that he served in the Black Flag Division under command of general Liu Yongfu (Lau Wing Fok). Liu and his army originally fought on the side of the Taiping Rebels, but when the uprising failed, Liu and his men surrendered to the Qing government. Taking all this into account, then the story seems not to contradict itself at all.

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Receiving a reply of some detail length from Master Andreas Hoffman whom I believed run a large multinational European Jee Shim martial art organisation can be a privilege as seen by possibly others and me. I am sure he is a very busy man. However I like to detain him a bit further if I were permitted without me appearing ingratiating. It just that my current understanding is Wong Wah-Bo contributed the three long choreographed forms Siu Nim/Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee. While Jee Shim, through Sun Kam and Leung Yee-Tai contributed the pole and loose sets.

Of cause this/my understanding is derived from the Ip/Yip family history. My previous post above if it has caused a misleading idea where I left out Ng Mui’s contribution of the boxing forms to my art then I apologise.

However, if my current understanding is correct then from Master Andreas Hoffman’s web site, which stated Wong Wah-Bo taught Sun Kam then Jee Shim Wing Chun should have a number of long choreographed forms as well. However, from an outsider’s point of view I get the idea that Jee Shim Wing Chun is all weapons and loose sets which should not be as according to my understanding above where Wong Wah-Bo having the three long choreographed forms from Ng Mui’s line. Of cause MY view is NOT a Jee Shim Wing Chun insider’s view.

Wai-Sing Fung

[Andreas Hoffman]

Hello Wai-Sing Fung,

on our website we only like to share the teaching of our ancestors, without our own interpretation.
I have handwritten family trees from the Lo family and from Grandmaster Tang Yick, they tell us all the same family tree:

Southern Siu Lum,Chisim,Wong Wah Bo,Sun Gam,Fung Siu Ching...

In future I will print these historic documents on our websites.
Keep an eye on:

www.wingchunkuen.com/chisim
www.wengchun.net
www.vtmuseum.org search for weng chun

Thank you for sharing.

Andreas Hoffmann

[illusionfist]

Hmmm, it seems unlikely that WFH would have worked with a regiment of ching soldiers given the fact that he was also closely affiliated with Sun Yat Sen. Would it stand to reason that the Chings would have even let him lead a regiment of chings, knowing that his father was an anti-ching enthusiast?

Peace