Where is the WCK?

[t_niehoff]

I have said the same thing for a while.

Yes, you have. So has Victor. And this guy who thinks his grandmaster is teaching him how to "easily handle" MMA fighters. Anyone see a pattern? What a great club.

What's interesting is that I don't say "don't listen" to people like you, Victor or "Sifu" Mark -- just the opposite, I think everyone should listen to what you guys have to say. Most of it is total nonsense, of course, but I don't try to stifle you guys or tell others what they should or should not listen to. I want you to share your views. Because most of your views are unsound, they lack suporting evidence and are based on or supported by poor reasoning. So when you share your views, they are easily shown for what they are. You guys, on the other hand, just say "don't listen to him" or resort to personal attacks. And, once again, I think that's great too since it shows how bankrupt your views are -- that's the best you can offer to support it.

Niehoff has latched on to some decent training advice that I am sure has helped him a great deal. Unfortunately, he only understand the training methods and their relationship to the overall context of fighting.

I couldn't agree more.

[CFT]

No, timing (beats) applies to both individuals. A pak da (a pak sao and strike) can be performed with a 1-2 timing or a 1 beat timing. If performed with a 1-2 timing, that is not a simutaneousl block and hit since you are doing one action then the other -- or, do you believe that a boxer's 1-2 (jab, cross) is a simul double strike? Don't you think a boxer might throw a 1-2 between an opponent's actions? The 1 beat timing is what makes it simultaneous -- it occurs AT THE SAME TIME (the definition of simultaneous). When the pak sao and strike, or two strikes, occur at the same time, then it is an example of simultaneous action.

I agree with you generally about the 1-2 vs. 1 beat thing. I think one of Alan Orr's youtube vids has a very good clip of pak-da:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adFdKq867y8

Very different to the usual pak-a-punch-out-of-the-air and punch.

[t_niehoff]

I agree with you generally about the 1-2 vs. 1 beat thing. I think one of Alan Orr's youtube vids has a very good clip of pak-da:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adFdKq867y8

Very different to the usual pak-a-punch-out-of-the-air and punch.

You've hit on one of the problems with the simul block and hit issue -- it occurs since most people in WCK are trying to apply that tactic on the outside, from noncontact. WCK is an attached fighting method, and the tools of WCK, the movement and tactics, are most appropriate in attached fighitng and aren't effective in non-contact (except for the few things used to obtain contact). Using that tactic in non-contact, free-movment fighting is a very low-percentage and high risk move. But the tactic is sound when applied in contact, during attached fighting.

[YungChun]

That's right....

So ya'll fellas, make sure you get attached before you start fighting...

Some ways to get attached..

Ask out your opponent for a candle light dinner...

Tell them you care and ask them more about their family...

Give them that look, and tell them their special.....

Ask them to go steady...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think we underplay this... What is a scrub..?

T mocks results against drunks..and such...

Most folks who do this stuff are not looking to be Olympic level fighters...

The guy you see as a "scrub" may be a serious threat to someone else, a small woman, being the most obvious..a small man another and as we see in the real world sometimes even a threat to a big strong man or cop..

Alone on a deserted, dimly lit street, everyone is a real threat.

Not all students are going to be able to or willing to take their training to the level some folks talk about here.. That's just reality..

IOW, it's no small thing for some run of the mill, ordinary type folks to dispatch a "scrub" or any threat in the street especially when scared out of their wits.

The limitations of a smaller person, a mother of three, an older person, or just someone who is not game for hard core training, street fighting or full contact sport fighting must also be considered.

A trained fighter is a person that not only fights and know how to fight, but can take a punch, can counter, can make you pay for your mistakes, is a serious danger all the time, in a nutshell, he is all the things a "scrub are" at their BEST and THEN SOME.
You train to fight someone that CAN fight, it gives you a far better edge than training to fight someone this a POTENTIALLY a danger IF it is under CERTAIN LIMITED circumstnnces.
It is NOT that a "scrub" isn't dangerous, not thatis not it because everyone is potentially dangerous.
It is that training with the idea of greatest danger make far more sense than training for the idea of least danger.
A trained fighter has all the POTENTIAL danger of a scrub PLUS all the REAL danger of someone that can seriously hurt you and that you may not be able to stop with "luck".

[YungChun]

Of course..

The point is there are various levels of training and levels of intensity that different folks can and will do...

Training choices...and ways to increase the odds of dealing with that threat..

There isn't one level of intensity correct for all students nor only one level of achievement valid for all.

Dealing with a dangerous scrub, often touted here as meaningless, is not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course..

The point is there are various levels of training and levels of intensity that different folks can and will do...

Training choices...and ways to increase the odds of dealing with that threat..

There isn't one level of intensity correct for all students nor only one level of achievement valid for all.

Dealing with a dangerous scrub, often touted here as meaningless, is not.

Agreed.
Though I don't think anyone views a scub as meaningless, it's just that training to deal with a good fighter allows you ro deal with scubs AND good fighters, whereas training to deal with scrubs allows you to deal with scrubs and get beat up by good fighters.


Every person is potentially dangerous, the degree of potential is the issue and training to deal with a high degree is better than a low degree, that's all.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by YungChun

The limitations of a smaller person, a mother of three, an older person, or just someone who is not game for hard core training, street fighting or full contact sport fighting must also be considered.

Ok so how should these people train then? How would you train someone who can only attend class twice a week, weighs 50 pounds less than everyone else does not like to get or spar hit but is looking for self defence?

I would argue that a decent person would tell this person that their goals are not reachable without training hard and some contact sparring, that they need to learn sparring if self defence is their goal, and if they are not prepared to spar then they will not be able to defend themselves 9 times out of ten and should probably not take up training.

Now if they are not looking for self defence but only to have fun and exercise i can understand them being taught everything in a system but what iff the smaller weaker older person is able to spar and is looking for self defence but can only train a couple of times a week how would you train them?

would you have them do endless forms, endless sticky hand drills and ancient weapons, or would you teach them to spar, hit pads learn to grapple and ground fight on the basis that when facing a guy 5 inches bigger and 50 pounds heavier their is a chance he will get his hands on you and take you down to the ground? Especially if you are a small female and he is intent on harming you?

[Frost]

Agreed.
Every person is potentially dangerous, the degree of potential is the issue and training to deal with a high degree is better than a low degree, that's all.

very true if you can handle a decent pro fighter or at least life with them then fighting an agressive but untrained fighter is not that hard, but doing it the other way around is a real wake up call

[YungChun]

Ok so how should these people train then? How would you train someone who can only attend class twice a week, weighs 50 pounds less than everyone else does not like to get or spar hit but is looking for self defence?

I would argue that a decent person would tell this person that their goals are not reachable without training hard and some contact sparring, that they need to learn sparring if self defence is their goal, and if they are not prepared to spar then they will not be able to defend themselves 9 times out of ten and should probably not take up training.

Now if they are not looking for self defence but only to have fun and exercise i can understand them being taught everything in a system but what iff the smaller weaker older person is able to spar and is looking for self defence but can only train a couple of times a week how would you train them?

would you have them do endless forms, endless sticky hand drills and ancient weapons, or would you teach them to spar, hit pads learn to grapple and ground fight on the basis that when facing a guy 5 inches bigger and 50 pounds heavier their is a chance he will get his hands on you and take you down to the ground? Especially if you are a small female and he is intent on harming you?

All I'm saying is that each person will have their limit of intensity... Even at my local boxing gym, they let each student go as hard as is comfortable for them...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is something to think about.
IF you can only workout a few times a week, lets say only 2 or 3 and not sure when you will be back.
Do you make those very easy going and low intensity?
Or do you make every single minute count?

[sanjuro_ronin]

very true if you can handle a decent pro fighter or at least life with them then fighting an agressive but untrained fighter is not that hard, but doing it the other way around is a real wake up call

Every bouncer will tell you stories how a scrub got in a sucker punch or got in a sneeky shot and then got his ass kicked, I know, I've seen it happen and been IN IT too.
The difference is that if it had been a good fighter instead of a scrub, it would have been all she wrote.
On another point and one that is more vital, I have seen many a scrub get taken out with one shot or two, I myself have take out a few in my time.
You don't get that "easy" a break with a good fighter, they can take a shot and keep on coming.
Something more vital to consider when training for self-protection.

[Frost]

Here is something to think about.
IF you can only workout a few times a week, lets say only 2 or 3 and not sure when you will be back.
Do you make those very easy going and low intensity?
Or do you make every single minute count?

I’d make every second count integrate pad work with leaning proper form and mechanics then test it out in sparring, you get technique, fitness and fighting skills all in one session.

When people say MMA fighters spent hours each day training to get good in stand up clinch and ground I sometimes wonder who they have watched train, I know guys that have fought amateur and pro only training a few nights a week, but making that training count. Sparring, hitting the pads, doing forms, weapons, breathing routines etc all take time if you want to learn to defend yourself which of the above do you drop?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I’d make every second count integrate pad work with leaning proper form and mechanics then test it out in sparring, you get technique, fitness and fighting skills all in one session.

When people say MMA fighters spent hours each day training to get good in stand up clinch and ground I sometimes wonder who they have watched train, I know guys that have fought amateur and pro only training a few nights a week, but making that training count. Sparring, hitting the pads, doing forms, weapons, breathing routines etc all take time if you want to learn to defend yourself which of the above do you drop?

Well said.
The Ma were orginally done to make a "fighting machine" in as quick a time as possible.
Sure it takes YEARS to master a system, a life time really, but to be proficient in self-protection shouldn't take years.
That is why orginally TMA ( TCMA, TJMA, etc) all focused on physical conditioning ( strength, speed and agility) and on fighting.

[m1k3]

Well said.
The Ma were orginally done to make a "fighting machine" in as quick a time as possible.
Sure it takes YEARS to master a system, a life time really, but to be proficient in self-protection shouldn't take years.
That is why orginally TMA ( TCMA, TJMA, etc) all focused on physical conditioning ( strength, speed and agility) and on fighting.

I think there is a part of training for self defense that is on even footing with training to fight but doesn't get as much press. I will also say it is not something taught a lot at your traditional MA schools either.

It has to do with what you can do to avoid putting yourself in situations where you will need to fight. It is simple stuff that a lot of people don't pay attention to. Things like avoiding places with large amounts of testosterone and alcohol. Don't walk down the deserted alley way by yourself. Pay attention to your surroundings. If you are going out drinking or clubbing go out with a group and stick together. Avoid doing stupid stuff that makes you a target.

Now if you spent more time training you would have less time for putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations.

That having been said if you are going to train to fight, do it right and avoid the fantasy fu schools.