Where is the Flow

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;968942]Yes, But its about feeling. Its not about mere transition. You allow your opponent to lead you to openings. An you follow your opponents lead when fighting. The flow is continously following the WC principal of attack when you feel nothing, receive what comes and escort what goes. If you follow that principal with continous motion while following your opponent from what you feel when connected then you will flow. WC is about sticking, senstitivity and flow. No set techniques.


This is all true. Absolutely. But unless you have the complete command of your technique you can not make any of this yours. You can not flow what you do not have.

[Liddel]

You know very well that when people think flow they think smooth and continous and that just isn't practical

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Never seen Anderson silva ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Liddel

.

Never seen Anderson silva ?

Fluid and flow are not the same thing my brother
When most think flow they think of a continous flow of moves and techniques, this is best exemplified by American Kenpo.
Of course you will never see that flow in a real fight because the opponent not only moves and hist back (rather than just standing there) but because you actually have to hit hard enough to do damage and THAT, as physics tells us, disrupts the "flow".
Of course, to me, broken flow is still flow...

[Hardwork108]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

.......
you actually have to hit hard enough to do damage and THAT, as physics tells us, disrupts the "flow".

You can flow within the disruption. In authentic kung fu terms one would use the mindset of just "being" in the flow. Of course, that is easier said than done. That is why REAL kung fu exponents are so difficult to find nowadays. However, I am aiming for this state of mind.

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

Of course, to me, broken flow is still flow...

To me broken flow is still a broken flow unless the more skilled kung fu exponent keeps flowing.

[stonecrusher69]

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

When i see alot of WC on youtube and at kwoons it is rigid and hard. The motion has alot of stops and disconnect with in them. Where is the continous motion and flow. Should WC look more like basic Karate? Or should be flowing like a crane. Flow is like water which goes around force or an obstruction to find an opening instead of opposing force with brute strength?

Where is the flow?

What is flow to you?

To me in order to have flow one must relax and not think only then can you flow.

[Liddel]

Fluid and flow are not the same thing my brother
When most think flow they think of a continous flow of moves and techniques, this is best exemplified by American Kenpo.
Of course you will never see that flow in a real fight because the opponent not only moves and hits back (rather than just standing there) but because you actually have to hit hard enough to do damage and THAT, as physics tells us, disrupts the "flow".
Of course, to me, broken flow is still flow...

That may sound fine on paper (or written in pixels) be we know that there are many elements of flow in fights hell IMO thats what combos are.... a literal translation of flow... not actions on a one by one basis but actions linked together, 2 3 4 or more.

If its broken by the opponent moving that doesnt mean the flow wasnt there, moreover two opponents can show elements of flow in attack at the same time in a fight.

It doesnt take a martial art expert to watch a begginer and an experienced boxer throw punches to see a difference in flow.

I understand its merely a difference in POV paul, but on this occasion it sees like your arguing semantics. Not that thats bad.

When most think flow they think of a continous flow of moves and techniques, this is best exemplified by American Kenpo.

anybody that thinks that hasnt fought IMO.

Fluid and flow are not the same thing my brother

im curious of your definition of the two ?

DREW

[Hardwork108]

Originally Posted by stonecrusher69

To me in order to have flow one must relax and not think only then can you flow.

If "not thinking" was all one needed to flow then most of the people claiming kung fu expertise in this forum would be flowing like rivers...Lol.

Seriously though, you are on the right track.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

When i see alot of WC on youtube and at kwoons it is rigid and hard. The motion has alot of stops and disconnect with in them. Where is the continous motion and flow. Should WC look more like basic Karate? Or should be flowing like a crane. Flow is like water which goes around force or an obstruction to find an opening instead of opposing force with brute strength?

Where is the flow?

What is flow to you?

good observation. wing chun should be relaxed and continuous.

when you see people do WC rigid like karate it is wrong. many do it

[Hardwork108]

Originally Posted by Pacman

good observation. wing chun should be relaxed and continuous.

when you see people do WC rigid like karate it is wrong. many do it

Agreed 100%!

People who do Wing Chun in a rigid way are not doing WC but rather pseudo-Wing Chun and have missed the point of this style's essence, including its internal aspects.

HW8

[k gledhill]

Goal ? to attack relentlessly with the given VT techniques / tactics/ concepts , that will allow this 'flowing attack'. ie attacking with little or no thought ..

IOW, if I asked you to attack me without stopping and I just randomly moved away from you with my hands behind my back , left then right , backwards, then forwards at you and back again trying to create space and or jam your working space by closing in on you....could you move and angle 'fluidly' and stick to me attacking and be within your optimal striking/kicking distances ? ( not sticking hands to me )

Trying to use VT straight line arm strikes, low straight kicks , angling off line to my entry line relative to your left or right attacking actions suddenly...intuitively, with no thought, overwhelm the opponent or counter strike their attacking actions with striking ability incorporating combined strike defense ability/ tactical movement relative to the side they extend towards you.

And I'm not saying to chain punch relentlessly with a lead leg charge down the center either...

From my experience many get 'chi-sao heads', meaning they try to fight and flow in redundant drill positions.
They make up 'tricks' to deal with guys who attack them with a basic stance doing chi-sao, like applying pressure to one arm then striking from the other ...it works in chi-sao BUT your not training to 'fight' like this, with 2 equally extended arms ...are you ?
The 'flow' thinking gets ingrained with too much chi-sao, and too little goal oriented focus.......iow too much feeling and forward pressure stuff, with wrist force , contact pressure is being developed rather than alignment, striking, etc... you over feel, over trap etc...you try to develop 'overflowing' actions, with little or no thought to developing your fighting attributes for NO pre contact... iow you get locked into doing chi-sao,...your beginning to feel like you have to make contact with the opponents arms to function yourself, to feel their intent before hitting them iow your being misled to to try to chase an arm with your arm rather than use motion and angling while striking to the target......
Or your always standing in front of a guy with a basic stance like a grappler...you then try to apply grappling ideas to your 'flowing' and it gets further from VT as you do this...

Its not saying its a bad drill you have now created, just that your way off the development line of goals for VT fighters, who dont develop grappling , over feeling, hand chasing , over trapping actions...get bogged down in DRILLS simply because they havent got the systematic progression of the system goals before them...

the end goal...what is it? chi-sao drills ? to flow in a drill standing in a basic stance with 2 extended arms no...so what are you developing ...

[Hardwork108]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Goal ? to attack relentlessly with the given VT techniques / tactics/ concepts , that will allow this 'flowing attack'. ie attacking with little or no thought ..

IMHO you misunderstand what is meant by flow. It is not just about attacking with "little or no thought", which implies charging in like a mad man....;-)

It is not even about flowing exclusively when you are attacking.

Originally Posted by k gledhill

IOW, if I asked you to attack me without stopping and I just randomly moved away from you with my hands behind my back , left then right , backwards,

Would you do that in a real fight?

Furthermore and at least the way I was taught, you don´t run after and chase an opponent who is running away from you or hopping around you. You flow when a bridge is made and finish the fight within a few moves!

I will add that your mindset will still be "flowing" even when your opponent is hopping around you.

Originally Posted by k gledhill

then forwards at you and back again trying to create space and or jam your working space by closing in on you....could you move and angle 'fluidly' and stick to me attacking and be within your optimal striking/kicking distances ? ( not sticking hands to me )

High level kung fu exponents will be able to "stick" to you even when they are not participating in sticky hands exercises. I.e. when you are in range and a bridge is established then there will be no hopping back out of range for you as you will be carrying a "passenger" back with you.

Originally Posted by K gledhill

Trying to use VT straight line arm strikes, low straight kicks , angling off line to my entry line relative to your left or right attacking actions suddenly...intuitively, with no thought, overwhelm the opponent or counter strike their attacking actions with striking ability incorporating combined strike defense ability/ tactical movement relative to the side they extend towards you.

And I'm not saying to chain punch relentlessly with a lead leg charge down the center either...

From my experience many get 'chi-sao heads', meaning they try to fight and flow in redundant drill positions.
They make up 'tricks' to deal with guys who attack them with a basic stance doing chi-sao, like applying pressure to one arm then striking from the other ...it works in chi-sao BUT your not training to 'fight' like this, with 2 equally extended arms ...are you ?
The 'flow' thinking gets ingrained with too much chi-sao, and too little goal oriented focus.......iow too much feeling and forward pressure stuff, with wrist force , contact pressure is being developed rather than alignment, striking, etc... you over feel, over trap etc...you try to develop 'overflowing' actions, with little or no thought to developing your fighting attributes for NO pre contact... iow you get locked into doing chi-sao,...your beginning to feel like you have to make contact with the opponents arms to function yourself, to feel their intent before hitting them iow your being misled to to try to chase an arm with your arm rather than use motion and angling while striking to the target......

I believe that one should not mix the principles involved with sparring scenarios as they were not meant for sparring scenarios. That is, when contact bridging is established during the encounter, within a few moves it is all over. You don´ t tap each other and hop around for another 15 minutes playing games. Having said that I am fully aware that a fight can last longer than that depending on skill levels of the participants and other factors.

However, the fact remains that flowing is and will be a required aspect of Wing Chun as well as many other kung fu styles and it involves more than just "attacking with no thought" ( which might get you killed...).

Originally Posted by k gredhill

Or your always standing in front of a guy with a basic stance like a grappler...you then try to apply grappling ideas to your 'flowing' and it gets further from VT as you do this...

That is why you should use the "grappling ideas" that are already inside the wing chun style (not all lineages) and which incorporate this style's principles and concepts, including flowing.

Originally Posted by k gredhill

Its not saying its a bad drill you have now created, just that your way off the development line of goals for VT fighters, who dont develop grappling , over feeling, hand chasing , over trapping actions...get bogged down in DRILLS simply because they havent got the systematic progression of the system goals before them...

You are touching about bad wing chun teaching and I agree with you there. I am not sure wether I would agree with you on the type of "systematic progression" that you would follow but then we are all different.

Originally Posted by k gredhill

the end goal...what is it? chi-sao drills ? to flow in a drill standing in a basic stance with 2 extended arms no...so what are you developing ...

And you are developing a CONSTANT state of flow, a mindset, if you will (among other things), not just flowing when you are doing this or that exercise.

HW8

[k gledhill]

I understand .... your working from YOUR understanding, not mine , thats all.

WSL would do this to guys, ask them to attack him and he might just move back, sideways etc.. to see what or how they kept up the attack or not...how good is the flow ?

Your mindless attack isnt my idea of mindless, so we cant really argue that one

anyway, its hard to write the ideas, Im sure many wont understand simply because they try to equate it with their current knowledge..high low middle My current thinking isnt like mainstream VT anymore. Whether you agree with me or not is besides the point, Im simply presenting another way of thinking, developed from A VT fighter, not a chi-saoer.

and developing a constant state of mind flow of what ? to use wrist force resting on a 'bridged ' arm ?
to flow in constant arm chasing ?

relativity ....Im trying to relate to gor sao, no pre-contact, not looking for arms , simply striking using the previous drills and training to simply hit someone with little or no thought to my own centerline defense ...not looking for a bridge to be made...not seeking out the 'arm' but circumnavigating it ...with motion, attack angles etc...movement, free moving in a flowing manner with the opponent ...

[Hardwork108]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

I understand .... your working from YOUR understanding, not mine , thats all.

Thank god for that!

Originally Posted by k gledhill

WSL would do this to guys, ask them to attack him and he might just move back, sideways etc.. to see what or how they kept up the attack or not...how good is the flow ?

From an interview with WSL that I had read some time ago, he didn't seem to be into the internal side of WC. Is that true? If it is true, then his "ideas" regarding flow may have been on the primitive side as far as internal training is concerned.

My guess is that he was just testing the entry/closing the range techniques of his students.

Originally Posted by Kgledhill

Your mindless attack isnt my idea of mindless, so we cant really argue that one

It is not about it being your or my "mindless" attack. It is more about just being.. If you appreciate that then you will better understand where I am coming from.

Originally Posted by K gledhill

anyway, its hard to write the ideas, Im sure many wont understand simply because they try to equate it with their current knowledge..high low middle

There are many levels of knowledge but only one truth regarding flow.

Originally Posted by K gledhill

My current thinking isnt like mainstream VT anymore.

From what I have seen "mainstream" VT is just a business enterprise with many faces (logos), so nothing really to write home about.

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Whether you agree with me or not is besides the point, Im simply presenting another way of thinking, developed from A VT fighter, not a chi-saoer.

All GENUINE VT/WC practitioners are fighters as it is a martial art. Of course that does not mean that all fighters are genuine Wing Chun exponents. Furthermore, whatever individual methods of training you choose the truth of the flow remains constant.

Originally Posted by k gledhill

and developing a constant state of mind flow of what ? to use wrist force resting on a 'bridged ' arm ?

Perhaps you will appreciate flow when you manage to answer that question correctly yourself.

Originally Posted by k gledhill

to flow in constant arm chasing ?

You are never meant to "chase" arms in genuine Wing Chun.

Originally Posted by k gledhill

relativity ....Im trying to relate to gor sao, no pre-contact, not looking for arms , simply striking using the previous drills and training to simply hit someone with little or no thought to my own centerline defense ...not looking for a bridge to be made...not seeking out the 'arm' but circumnavigating it ...with motion, attack angles etc...movement, free moving in a flowing manner with the opponent ...

That sounds more like it for the most part but I am still guessing that you see flow in a different manner to me.

[k gledhill]

So you are into internal stuff...I will leave it there may the flow be with you. and may your wrists find that sweet spot to bridge.

I will stick with WSL thinking...

[Hardwork108]

Originally Posted by k gledhill

So you are into internal stuff...I will leave it there may the flow be with you. and may your wrists find that sweet spot to bridge.

I will stick with WSL thinking...

Yes, I am "into internal stuff". The real power of kung fu comes from the "internal stuff".

Good luck with your chosen path.