talking about hypocracy in kung fu: shaolin monks in america banging sexy white women

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Ray Pina

Nothing is sacred anymore.

The emperor spoke of all the money he had donated to Buddhist temples and of all the statues he had erected in the name of Buddha. He asked Damo what good merit he, the emperor, had earned through his generosity. Damo replied; "no merit".

This surprised the emperor but they continued talking. Eventually, the emperor asked if there was Buddha in this world. Damo replied; "no". Startled, the Emperor asked Damo the supreme truth of the Dharma. "Vast emptiness; nothing holy," he replied. Finally, the Emperor asked; "Who are you?" "I know not," said Damo.

[GeneChing]

That brings up the other class of monks, the biaoyanseng. These are the monks that go on the 'official' Shaolin tours. Technically, they are a subset of wuseng, although they tend to be contracted strictly for the Shaolin stage shows. Now, what delineates an official show is delicate. Abbot Shi Yongxin has been trying to clamp down on all shows that bear the Shaolin name, and rightly so. However, that's not a simple task, and another subject entirely.

The rise of the biaoyanseng as such has been relatively recent. The first generation of touring wuseng had to be pretty hardcore because Shaolin was harder then. They had to answer challenges and live with greater hardships than the newer generations. The biaoyenseng are much less committed. They're really just wushu performers at heart. The 'official' ones do take vows, usually under Abbot Yongxin so they're usually Yan generation, but the vows are only of a honorary nature and the title should be discarded after the tour is done. Of course, they don't necessarily do that.

Anyone who's done any Chandong Shaolin can separate the biaoyanseng out pretty easily. However, they usually have all the traditional forms. They might not know the applications, but they have the forms.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by bawang

i remember hearing from china a shaolin monk runaway banged up a bald lesbian, another guy married a white woman. i didnt think it was true but now i find out it really is true.

a lot of their students on the internet articles say its ok, they can eat meat and drink wine and bang women, but im confused. i think its dishonest to advertise yourself as a monk and not be a monk

perhaps educating yourself on shaolin monasticism and discipleship will help clear your confusion.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by GeneChing

That brings up the other class of monks, the biaoyanseng. These are the monks that go on the 'official' Shaolin tours. Technically, they are a subset of wuseng, although they tend to be contracted strictly for the Shaolin stage shows. Now, what delineates an official show is delicate. Abbot Shi Yongxin has been trying to clamp down on all shows that bear the Shaolin name, and rightly so. However, that's not a simple task, and another subject entirely.

The rise of the biaoyanseng as such has been relatively recent. The first generation of touring wuseng had to be pretty hardcore because Shaolin was harder then. They had to answer challenges and live with greater hardships than the newer generations. The biaoyenseng are much less committed. They're really just wushu performers at heart. The 'official' ones do take vows, usually under Abbot Yongxin so they're usually Yan generation, but the vows are only of a honorary nature and the title should be discarded after the tour is done. Of course, they don't necessarily do that.

Anyone who's done any Chandong Shaolin can separate the biaoyanseng out pretty easily. However, they usually have all the traditional forms. They might not know the applications, but they have the forms.

Thanks for further clarifying this point, cool.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by bawang

if you like the combat side of kung fu youre still going to fight like kickboxing 99% of the tiem. modern mixed martial arts is 100 times better
im just saying in the general state of kung fu, most people cant fight, but they dont learn good morals either. theyre just learning to dance very badly so whats the point. i just dont get it
i was just disappointed because i know we r all human but i thought maybe shaolin monks would be different. i just think its dishonest for shaolin monks to advertise themself as mystical holy man

That's not true about CMA at all, I've fought since 1970s on the streets and in the gym (I'm 49 now and still have had to use it for self defense and in friendly matches all around the world, and have beaten MMA trained people) and funny thing is that what I learned on the streets (I had to fight to get to school and back and to just go anywhere often times) was very much like what I later learned in CMA classes when doing applications. So, seeing that CMA was useful, whenever I had to use self defense, I always used movements from the sets I learned, and they always worked and fast, all over the world.
I also had learned american boxing (world champ Tony Canzonieri was a famous relative), but the timing and bobbing and weaving and so on, was also done in my CMA training. We learned to get out of the way and then clobber the opponent.

I just gave some lessons when my band played in Chicago on october 31 to Royaldragon and, abdominal stitches and all, I showed him applications to the TZ Chang Quan routine that he studies. I knocked him down over and over just using direct efficient and effective movements from the actual routine, not once did I have to resort to using kickboxing, as he can vouch.
I was able to use correct body mechanics from my CMA training and do the routines and the applications without hurting myself even though I was only 3 weeks out of the hospital and had deep surgery that removed a section of my internal organs, doing the KF lesson with a long row of abdominal stitches from the top of my belly to the very bottom.
I sincerly DOUBT any MMA person could do that, fresh out of the hospital and still sporting stitches. But my neigong and routines practice of correct, efficent, and effective CMA certainly allowed to do it. In fact, I was supposed to die all year and the surgeon said my martial art training made me strong enough, even preventing organ bursting that they were afraid of.

About the Shaolin Monks thing that is bothering you.

It's all relative to what an adult feels he needs to do.
Many famous martial artists, great ones, from the 1800s and 1900s were known to frequent prostitues. Never did it make them lesser martial artists.
Like I said before, not all performs that do Shaolin routines are ordained monks and so they can do what they feel like doing, and face the consequences or not, like any adult does.

What about Taoist Priests, having sex as part of their energy training is part of their religion.
Many an old Taoist is having sex with young women as part of their rituals, and is all cool.
Why not?

[GeneChing]

Taoist sex rituals and prostitute-using masters aside, a Shaolin monk is by definition, a Buddhist ascetic. That's quite different. If they intend to be authentic in their Buddhist practice, they need to observe their abstinence. Therein lies the rub.

LFJ's Chan City post above was accurate for the post-CR generation, but you've got to keep in mind that Shaolin took some huge hits during the last century. From the ROC to the PRC, Shaolin was literally decimated. So there were a lot of compromises made. Shi Suyun's situation (who is technically my Sigong, although I only met him once) is often cited because Suyun was so well respected. He survived the CR. Most monks in China were forced back into civilian life, literally forced to marry during the CR. Many compromises were made. That was when Suyun married and had kids. But times are different now. Shaolin is very affluent, one of the richest temples in China. They can now afford to be picky. They can afford to enforce the doctrines of Buddhism on all their monks. In my conversations with Abbot Yongxin, it's clear that he's trying to move in this direction, however, it's not so simple. He can't just kick out all those meat-eating, booze-drinking, hoochie-chasing wuseng without reprisals. After all, they did help to maintain the order during some very dark times. So Shaolin is in transition.

My beef, and there is a pun in there, comes from being a practicing Buddhist prior to becoming a Shaolin disciple. If you're going to be authentic in your Shaolin practice as a member of the order, you've got to follow Buddhist precepts. Now, this doesn't mean that anyone that practices Shaolin must be Buddhist. Not at all. That's like saying I have to be Jewish to enjoy a bagel. But anyone claiming to be disciple of Shaolin should be working on being Buddhist, on keeping those vows.

Why bother taking vows if your not going to keep them?

[Boston Bagua]

quoted for truth, Gene

[bawang]

hey doctor canzonierir, thanx for the reply, u know a lot of cool info
i only heard stories in my hometown about li zhicheng, also hong xiquan and the yihe tuan. you know the chinese saying the winner is king the loser is scum. whatever they did or didnt do let the sky judge them and not men

ther isnt a unified information or opninio in china about those types of past people. some people see heros some say theyre criminals.

i just wanted to discuss people joining shaolin temple because of kung fu and not buddhism, and some monks giving in to temptation of glamorous america. i cried when i saw shaolin temple movie when i was a kid because i didnt know china looked so beatiful so many years ago with strong people. the movie seemed like a beautiful dream to me.shaolin represented to me a piece of the past. i just feel disappointed finding out the truth many years later

[uki]

Originally Posted by GeneChing

Why bother taking vows if your not going to keep them?

yet are not "vows" just another form of attachment? this is the paradox of the whole point right here - approaching this buddhist concept with a taoist approach is what has truly been discovered and put into practice. it is laughable that one take a vow of celibacy in order to achieve the state of enlightenment, when in truth, producing children is what ensures that truth and understanding, to be discovered on the path, is passed along for future generations. a wise father will have a wise child.

many useless rituals were installed by many useless men...

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by uki

yet are not "vows" just another form of attachment?

no. when it becomes integrated into your way of life, it takes no effort. focus is laid elsewhere in practice. even at the beginning of training when it takes conscious effort to uphold a precept, if it becomes an attachment it is a wholesome one. not all attachment is unwholesome, mind you.

it is laughable that one take a vow of celibacy in order to achieve the state of enlightenment, when in truth, producing children is what ensures that truth and understanding, to be discovered on the path, is passed along for future generations.

no its not.

[Royal Dragon]

Originally Posted by bawang

if you like the combat side of kung fu youre still going to fight like kickboxing 99% of the tiem. modern mixed martial arts is 100 times better
im just saying in the general state of kung fu, most people cant fight, but they dont learn good morals either. theyre just learning to dance very badly so whats the point. i just dont get it
i was just disappointed because i know we r all human but i thought maybe shaolin monks would be different. i just think its dishonest for shaolin monks to advertise themself as mystical holy man

Reply]
That is a bunch of nonsense. Last weekend I spent time with Sal Canzonieri. We did a lot of applications to his Shaolin (Tai Tzu in particular). It looked nothing like Kick boxing. It more closely resembles Shui Jiao, or closer still to Silat, but it's not even that. It is it's own thing.

As for modern MMA, I still fail to see what good about it. After 15 years of watching it grow and evolve, it's still just old arts mixed together. There is nothing superior about it at all.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

As for modern MMA, I still fail to see what good about it. After 15 years of watching it grow and evolve, it's still just old arts mixed together. There is nothing superior about it at all.

It's funny to see traditional kung fu guys continue to put down MMA and constantly chest puff about how much better their training and style are, and make statements such as "it's just old arts mixed together". Ironically enough, the same can be said for most traditional Kung Fu styles. Yet that is ok, because, you know, it's Kung Fu. Why is it that Kung Fu stylists are so threatened by MMA? Please tell me, I would love to know.

[David Jamieson]

Originally Posted by LFJ

The emperor spoke of all the money he had donated to Buddhist temples and of all the statues he had erected in the name of Buddha. He asked Damo what good merit he, the emperor, had earned through his generosity. Damo replied; "no merit".

This surprised the emperor but they continued talking. Eventually, the emperor asked if there was Buddha in this world. Damo replied; "no". Startled, the Emperor asked Damo the supreme truth of the Dharma. "Vast emptiness; nothing holy," he replied. Finally, the Emperor asked; "Who are you?" "I know not," said Damo.

It's talk like that that probably got his ass executed on the river bank.

Anyway, declarations of celibacy are one thing, actually adhering to them when you are outside the monastic life is another thing entirely.

It's easy to be austere in a monastery. It's easy to be righteous where there is little in the way of temptation. It's easy to walk upright were nothing presses you down.

Ask for nothing, expect nothing and mind your own ways of being. If you can live with yourself, you are doing great!

There is still something to be learned from the least of us, and taint to be found with the greatest of us. It's easy to look outside and see beauty and fault. You wanna take the difficult path, then look at those things within yourself first and be mindful of them first before you cast aspersion and judgment outside yourself.

But if something really sucks and ticks you off, there's always the internet, where we can all bitch endlessly about the unfairness of life!

[mawali]

1. Generally speaking, the MMA guys will always come out ahead
2. Generally speaking, the CMA guys will always be downed by everybody else
3. The few like Sal are an exception and not the rule.

[sha0lin1]

Originally Posted by bawang

if you like the combat side of kung fu youre still going to fight like kickboxing 99% of the tiem. modern mixed martial arts is 100 times better
im just saying in the general state of kung fu, most people cant fight, but they dont learn good morals either. theyre just learning to dance very badly so whats the point. i just dont get it
i was just disappointed because i know we r all human but i thought maybe shaolin monks would be different. i just think its dishonest for shaolin monks to advertise themself as mystical holy man

You have just stated exactly what the movies portray the monks as. I don't know any monks who portray or advertise themselves as "mystical holy men." I thought that was just the kung fu T.V. series.

I have to give you props for the title of this thread though. It makes it sound like that is the desire of all the monks in America. But here we are again discussing a stereotype of what a Shaolin Monk should be. Most people see them all as a venerable Master Po. Who practice kung fu, meditate and spit out truisms all day long to their students. Lets remember that there are several types of Shaolin. The lay disciples, the martial monks, and the fully ordained monks. The martial monks are not all ordained monks who live up to the buddhist precepts and not all the ordained monks are martial monks.