Luohan Quan

[r.(shaolin)]

Originally Posted by David Jamieson

lohan/arhat

these are generally regarded as the 18 buddhist "saints" with each depicted in a different posture of deep meditation.

could it be that any set that expresses these postures is a memory tool?

In the context of Shaolin the term "luohan" is significant specifically in its relationship to the martial arts. Within context to northern Chinese Buddhism, the 'luohan' were guardians and defenders of Buddhism. In Sanskrit they are known as the Arhan/Arhat/Sthavira, 'the disciples of Buddha and the guardians of Buddhism. The Indian word means: "one who is worthy of receiving deference" In Tibetan Buddhism (dain i darughsan) their role is further clarified as “vanquishers of the enemies (of Buddhism)". This is why when the term, "Shaolin Luohan Quan" or "Shaolin Luohan Men" is use, what is being referred to is the martial arts of the defending monks of Shaolin Monastery.
cheers,
r.

[GeneChing]

We ran an article on that in our 1998 November issue. Luo Han Shi Ba Shou - 18 Hands Shaolin Form: The Complete Shaolin Form and its Sanda and Qinna applications by Shawn Xiangyang Liu. He's connected to Shi Deyang, but I'm not sure if this is the same form that Deyang propounds. The article details the lyrics in Mandarin, but I don't have easy access to that file so I'll have to copy them by hand. I've pulled the issue and hope to do so when I need a break.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

This is also the same form practiced by Deyang under the name xiao luohan. Deyangs is about the least correct version. I know for a fact neither his master Sufa nor his master Suxi had this form, and i have never seen anyone else do it like this so i assume he changed some of the moves himself.

its actually a different set. sal linked to the videos of that "daluohanquan". the one master deyang does is also called "old frame", laojia luohanquan of 36 postures total. it is practiced in ven. suxi's lineage as well as others, such as through ven. suyun, whom master deyang also received training under.

although ven. suyun's disciples, such as masters deding and decheng do some postures with slight differences. but these are the laojia luohanquan, not the longer set, but it is like a shorter version of that, so they share similar layout and sequences.

in fact, according to master deyang, first there were the neigong sets. from luohan shibashou came the 36 posture luohan boxing set, which today is called "xiaoluohan" or "laojia luohan". then there came six roads of "daluohanquan", and the enormous system of shaolin luohanquan thus evolved, complete with weapon sets as well.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

Deyang is a great teacher and an even nicer person, never the less you musn't take all he says or all his forms as gospal versions,

I would love to hear what people say about his version of Zhaoyang quan for example.....

i would trust him on his experience in shaolin, having studied under several of the elder generation monks of the 20th century. also being the keeper of the library, transcribing ancient texts, and his work with ven. deqian.

also, regarding his sets, note that the video versions arent often what is taught at his school. not even as beginner versions. they are the bare bone versions. he teaches the fine detail in person though.

zhaoyangquan, for example, on the video is missing a series of leg and hand techniques in between the two "tongzi baifo" postures.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (set 1 of 8 sets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA (Shi deyang's totally mixed up short version, missing moves and moves out of order)

not sure that this is "shi deyang's" version. i've seen that master deru also teaches the set this way, with the postures all in the same order. there is only a small difference with stepping forward instead of backward or elbowing in a slightly different direction.

so, i'm not sure how it became so different from the arrangement of the set in the encyclopedia, but master deyang is not the only one to do it this way. (deru is also under ven. suxi)

[GeneChing]

I first learned Luohan from Yanming in a one-day seminar. I kept that for a spell, but eventually let it go because there was no one to coach me further on it. It mapped more or less on to the Luohan that was presented in Guolin's article series.

Funny story - Guolin wasn't that accustomed to being in a photo shoot where you constantly have to stop and do it again. It messed with his flow and he kept losing his place. By that time, I had forgotten Yanming's Luohan, but could still remember bits of it and could coach Guolin back on track. He kept insisting that I knew the form and trying to get me to show him my version.

I learned a Luohan again under my master Decheng. I really liked his version and I'm embarrassed that that I lost it. His was the most divergent.

I learned it again from Yanfei, who I'm training under now. He hasn't drilled me on it in months, so it's pretty rusty. I keep thinking I should pester him to bring that one back into our rotation, but only half of the class knows it and we have some newbies now, so he's focused on getting them up to speed. I really should dig that one out again and bring it back into my practice.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

We say it is mixed up as there is a lot missing plus he changes a few directions.

you're comparing two different sets.

For example the ban shou followed by xuan feng jiao. This is one move, you use ban shou to distract the opponant and prepare for the big kick, its a common combination, that saying xuan feng must be done in the same direction as the ban shou. Deyang turns back on himself eliminating the meaning. he compensates for this by spinning into bai fo.

actually in application of the move in laojia luohanquan you turn back the opposite direction after banshou to entice the opponent to come forward, at which point you launch the xuanfengjiao. it takes off in the opposite direction, but still hits the charging opponent.

the same strategy is used in mizongquan yilu, toward the end after banshou comes a tengkong bailian, then a chopping palm in the opposite direction, enticing the opponent forward when you've apparently turned away. then you catch them with the "hoist a flag in the wind" technique which snaps back at them. it resembles the ceremonial way the chinese throw out their flag to be raised up the pole if you've seen that.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

I don't think they would have learned it from Suxi though, he was Nanyuan pai, and mainly taught Xiao Tongbei well. Plus he had already mostly stopped practicing by the time deyang would have become his disciple.

?

by 1983 he had just begun to fall ill and lose some mobility but still practiced and taught at that time. he also headed the "group for excavation & systematization of shaolin wushu", and published texts like "the secret transmissions of shaolin boxing". he was known as the "shaolin boxing king". his knowledge of shaolin boxing was encyclopedic and he taught quite a lot to master deyang, who at that time became known as the "young shaolin boxing king" for their vast knowledge of shaolin sets and specialized skills.

Zhao yang quan is not actually Zhaoyang quan at all. That form is called gaunchao quan or tide watching form in english, and Deyang has changed it dramatically.

its the same "zhaoyangquan" in the shaolin encyclopedia. in the same sequence.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Hmm, ok.

The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it. Just because it is printed does not make it all the most authentic shaolin kung fu. If you see the new version (the 2 book version) it even contains updated modern versions of some forms.

I can tell you a lot about Zhaoyang quan but its not info for an open forum.
.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it.

i reference it because you say master deyang mixed things up and made his own version and changed names. but its obvious he's not the only one who does these sets this way. "misinformation" also depends on what/who you tend to believe.

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

That move is in Mizong ER lu, at the end.

its taught as yilu by master deyang, before the other set that is erlu. even though the instructional videos have them named backward.

[LFJ]

the encyclopedia would have been edited by more than one person and cross-referenced for accuracy, at least to name it as the right set. thats kind of what the encyclopedia was for.

but also, the luohan shibashou yilu set is not only done in that sequence by master deyang, but also by at least master deru and branch schools under him in the u.s.. it has slight technical differences but the same sequence, and they are both under ven. suxi.

of interest, how were you taught that mizong set with all the xubus? its quite a bit different from the videos he put out.

when were you at the school, and how much chinese do you speak?

[sha0lin1]

Question for you guys. Is Chaoyang Quan and Zhaoyang Quan one in the same? Or are they two different forms?

[RenDaHai]

@ Shaolin 1

Chaoyang quan is a shortened version of Zhaoyang quan with a slightly different name.

(Chaoyang = Sunny) (Zhaoyang = Rising Sun)

Both are actually not the original zhaoyang quan (that is 3 forms long 180 movements). The form your referring to is GuanChao quan (tide watching form). It was taught to the school students in DengFeng during the late 50's early 60's.

[RenDaHai]

@ LFJ

I spent 3 months at Wu Seng Hou Bei Dui last summer. Deyang Shi taught me Er lo personally and taught yi lu to the entire school together. Yi lu is a little different to the videos, If you break it up it has 9 xu bu's plus a tenth stance which is unique, halfway between a Xu Bu and a Pu Bu (he doesn't use it in the video). When we were all learning it he would stop for a few minutes at every stance and talk about it. We all had to stay in stance while he was talking. With that many Xu bu's it was a killer.

I have lived in China almost continuously for 4 years. I never specifically learned chinese but I can speak reasonably well. Can't read or write it though :-).

[LFJ]

you mean last year? i'm sure i know which one you are.

thought you learned it from coach li.