An object lesson . . .

[Wayfaring]

Put on armor and, even with cutting edged weapons, much of the cutting edged consequences are removed.

Oh, great. Now I need to go and hang out with all the nerds from the Renaissance festival to learn an object lesson.

[Wayfaring]

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren't used to or if you put them in a situation they aren't used to), then they crumble.

Your point about needing to train at a fight level of intensity to be able to be effective is a valid one, both with weapons and without. And yes, it's apparant that the kendo students had not previously trained much at all with a fight level of intensity.

[goju]

This is what I talked about -- if YOU don't personally experience it, then you can't get it.

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren't used to or if you put them in a situation they aren't used to), then they crumble.

Many TMAists don't believe -- and don't want to believe -- this to be the case.

according to who theres millions of us out there sitting on your puter all day how in the hell could you have met them?

[Mr Punch]

This thread certainly wins the prize for stating the bleeding obvious then.

I'm still waiting for that boxer vs table-tennis player link.

[Liddel]

This is what I talked about -- if YOU don't personally experience it, then you can't get it.

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren't used to or if you put them in a situation they aren't used to), then they crumble.

Many TMAists don't believe -- and don't want to believe -- this to be the case.

I think your pushing this further than need be, there are more factors at work and while you may have a point at face value, its not as pertinent as you think IMO.

One main factor is intent - the intent of the judoka is on hitting the oppoenent as many times as possible, where as the intent of the Kendo peoeple is landing a killing blow and in the context of training to then stop !

I see te Kendo guys landing the first blow several times.

They realise the reality that if you had a real sword the first one to land is generally the winner and the opponent having been cut wont be able to act as the judokas are in this isolated setting.

Ive experienced this when training Chi do - even with a big smack of a wooden Do on the lead arm of a training partner they still then try to use it for thier own attack when the reality of its further use after being cut is fairly low percentage.

Second this is there first attempt knowing now how the judokas behave, id say the learning curve would be steep for the Kendo people given the chance to rinse and repeat. Perhaps they held to etiquette etc etc.

Ive been to other VT schools and had issue with the depth and intensity people used in Chi Sau drills, because im an outsider they go harder and make it more about a light to medium spar than a drill platform for feeling and experiencing technique/s etc ive asked people do you want to Chi Sau or spar ? because Chi Sau isnt sparring and sparring isnt Chi Sau - state the ruleset and ill be happy to be involved....

SO i see this as one of those situations - we dont know the mindset of the people involved nor do we know thier real skill level.

Take off the gear and lets see them go at it again - ill bet a 50
1) the judokas are not as braisen without protection.
2) the Kendo people are not as conservitive and are more aggresive.

Rulesets are huge contributors to the outcome.

As far as them getting taken down, well last time i checked Kendo wasnt a ground style so... well done they beat scrubs - which you Terrence constantly berate TMA's for !

Next time your on the tennis court fire a volley back at your opponent and before they have a chance to hit the ball back throw your raquet a them and yell "i win".

See my point

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

You should see how much kendo changes when you go from Shinai to Bokken...
As for the clip, Most of the kendo guys I know don't really understand the difference between what they do and full contact stick fighting or even real sword work, but they are quick to grasp it when they are exposed to it.
Most people do just "whack away" with the shinai when they first pick one up, of course they wouldn't ever win even a beginners match in a tournament.
Many would do well to remember that scene from the 7 samurai, the duel scene near the beginning, where it is made clear the importance of "ma ai".

[Knifefighter]

Take off the gear and lets see them go at it again - ill bet a 50
1) the judokas are not as braisen without protection.
2) the Kendo people are not as conservitive and are more aggresive.

I'll take you up on that 50. Having fought a number of times with no gear, I can tell you that grappling happens a lot quicker and a lot more often when you go with no gear.

The judo guys would have been even more dominant because they would have quickly moved to grappling/ground range where the kendo guys would have been out of their element.

[Pacman]

The judo guys would have been even more dominant because they would have quickly moved to grappling/ground range where the kendo guys would have been out of their element.

you're missing the point that everyone has tried to make to you. you might as well give the judo guys a gun and say "the judo guys would have shot and killed the kendo guys easily"

[Liddel]

I'll take you up on that 50. Having fought a number of times with no gear, I can tell you that grappling happens a lot quicker and a lot more often when you go with no gear.

I wouldnt dare to disagree Dale given your experience in that environment vs mine but i was addressing the issues seperately.

The judo guys would have been even more dominant because they would have quickly moved to grappling/ground range where the kendo guys would have been out of their element.

Your blending my points here....

I wouldnt dare to disagree Dale given your experience in that environment vs mine but i was addressing the issues seperately.

Id put a 50 up for another go at a sword 'Duel' where the first blow is the winner no grappling !

Then i made the point thats constantly put out on this forum that beating people with less than average skills in any given fight area - standup - clinch - ground - is no big deal, which clearly applies to the situation where the Judokas took them down as the kendo stylists are not familair with ground techs so...fairly obvious outcome there.

I did say IMO T has a point at face value, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that out, but its just not all that poignant

Are you saying that if i went on into a judo school asked to roll and then in the mix started throwing bombs that it wouldnt stuff at least one of the students game ?

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

IF we are to take the shinai as to what they are SUPPOSE to be, ie: live blades, then whatever the Judoka did AFTER they received the cut from the Kendoka is irrelevant because it "never happend", you certainly cant counter a strike the chopped off your wrist by striking back with that same arm.
Granted that the way kendoka hit with shinais have ZERO to do with how to use a live sword, nevertheless the point is that they represent a "live blade".
I know that when I was learning the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu system of Kenjutsu we did some grappling VS the live blade and it was pretty clear how dangerous that was IF the guy with the sword knew how to counter the grappling.
Now we can go deeper and see how well a sword cuts VS armour and how that effects grappling and so forth, but that is not really relevant to the video.

Fact is the judoka did well for guys "playing with sticks" with very little prior experience.