Wing Chun for Combat

[Mr Punch]

I have stated before ways to increase your accuracy by use of dummy with red dots illustrating the pressure points. When you can strike the dummy with out looking an even strike the spots in a dark room then your accuracy will be good enough to strike an moving opponent.

Total bollocks alert. Practising in light or dark on a motionless object will improve your accuracy and ability to hit motionless objects in the light or dark. If you have someone dress up in full body armour and paint dots on their vital points and try and hit them while they're hitting you you're getting closer, although of course many of these vital points are between the armour!

Have you tried nailing the vital point on the point of the chin when they’re moving around and trying to punch you? Try it with a palm or punch first and see if you can knock them out. Then work your way up to finger jabbing smaller more covered spots…

OK, now I’m being facetious!

[m1k3]

The fact that the title of this thread is highly irrelevant or at least over-generalized for the subject matter is neither here nor there, as you did state quite clearly in the first post what you were talking about so quite why suddenly everyone's jumping on you for the use of 'combat' I don't know.

It was really only me that jumped on him. Its a pet peeve of mine and I clearly stated in the post that it was a rant.

However, I do feel that claiming what we do as martial artists as "combat" is way off target and devalues the meaning of the word. There are those who know the difference between "martial arts combat" and combat on the battlefield and that difference is huge.

Just in case anyone is interested.

[golgo]

Sounds like you a bashing the guy over semantics.

[Mr Punch]

It was really only me that jumped on him. Its a pet peeve of mine and I clearly stated in the post that it was a rant.

However, I do feel that claiming what we do as martial artists as "combat" is way off target and devalues the meaning of the word. There are those who know the difference between "martial arts combat" and combat on the battlefield and that difference is huge.

Just in case anyone is interested.

Don't get me wrong: I agree with you completely... just didn't know how come it came up on page 3/4.

And yes, Golgo, when semantics means the difference between language that everybody understands to mean one thing and something that means something else to someone else, it's pretty ****ing important.

[m1k3]

Don't get me wrong: I agree with you completely... just didn't know how come it came up on page 3/4.

And yes, Golgo, when semantics means the difference between language that everybody understands to mean one thing and something that means something else to someone else, it's pretty ****ing important.

We got there when he made this statement:

I agree about self Defense. But I am speaking of using Wing Chun for combat not self defense. If i want to learn self defense I think i might take up some Judo or Jiujitsu class. But I am speaking about combat right now. Not self defense. Wing Chun is an offensive art like Hung Gar and Eagle claw. They are about self defense. They are about combat. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

Up to then the use of the word combat didn't bother me but when he said he didn't train for self defense but for "COMBAT"....well, you get point. I went into rant mode.

So there is the whole ugly story.

And no, I'm not sorry I did it, so there!

[golgo]

Don't get me wrong: I agree with you completely... just didn't know how come it came up on page 3/4.

And yes, Golgo, when semantics means the difference between language that everybody understands to mean one thing and something that means something else to someone else, it's pretty ****ing important.

OK. Sorry. Please feel free to discredit anything that ever comes out of his mouth, due to the fact that you disagree over the distinction between "combat" and "self defense."

I forgot that this board was Bullshido-lite: Where civil discussions go to die.

[m1k3]

OK. Sorry. Please feel free to discredit anything that ever comes out of his mouth, due to the fact that you disagree over the distinction between "combat" and "self defense."

I forgot that this board was Bullshido-lite: Where civil discussions go to die.

You see, he made the distinction between them. Up until then I was fine and the discussion was civil.

[Yoshiyahu]

What does Self Defense mean in your opinion?

We got there when he made this statement:



Up to then the use of the word combat didn't bother me but when he said he didn't train for self defense but for "COMBAT"....well, you get point. I went into rant mode.

So there is the whole ugly story.

And no, I'm not sorry I did it, so there!

[chusauli]

What does Self Defense mean in your opinion?

There should be no opinion what Self defense is. Self Defense is a legal term; Basically it means you must break off your attack as soon as the opponent breaks off his attack to you. If you continue, you are doing aggravated assault (illegal) and dueling (illegal). Of course, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV...you'd best check with Terence Niehoff.

BTW, in my opinion, WCK would fall under the category of dueling. The only outlet that is legal would be sport.

[m1k3]

What does Self Defense mean in your opinion?

I am probably being too picky about this.

Self defense has to do with protecting yourself or others against harm, both verbal and physical. It can be as simple as being aware of your surroundings and avoiding bad places, to verbal deescalation, to leaving the site of a potential conflict (fancy talk for walking away from a fight), to restraining someone to out and out fighting with or without weapons. It can be as simple as saying I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that or fighting for your life as need be.

There really isn't an easy answer for it.

I tend to define combat as something that happens betweens groups of armed individuals, usually as least one side being members of the armed forces. These groups are usually heavily armed and willing to inflict damage on people and property to accomplish a mission.

I tend to see what happens in self defense as random, at least for the victim, or a form of dueling, an agreed upon fight for honor or out of anger, by those involved. Self defense may end in death of the participants but almost never escalates beyond those in the general area of the fight.

I tend to see combat as intentional, at least in the sense that those involved knew the potential for combat was possible and maybe even likely. They are usually armed, often trained and willing to bring in additional resources if needed. Combat is intended to end in death with the possibility of collateral damage to others and damage to their property. Wholesale damage to locations and large numbers of deaths is not unusual in combat. Combat can and often does escalate to involve those not involved in the initial phase of the conflict as additional resources are called in by one or both sides.

The difference is in intention and scale. Self defense is usually personal, combat is usually to achieve an objective or to accomplish a mission.

[Yoshiyahu]

There should be no opinion what Self defense is. Self Defense is a legal term; Basically it means you must break off your attack as soon as the opponent breaks off his attack to you. If you continue, you are doing aggravated assault (illegal) and dueling (illegal). Of course, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV...you'd best check with Terence Niehoff.

BTW, in my opinion, WCK would fall under the category of dueling. The only outlet that is legal would be sport.

According the dicitionary Chusauli whats the definition of combat?

I tend to see combat as intentional, at least in the sense that those involved knew the potential for combat was possible and maybe even likely. They are usually armed, often trained and willing to bring in additional resources if needed. Combat is intended to end in death with the possibility of collateral damage to others and damage to their property. Wholesale damage to locations and large numbers of deaths is not unusual in combat. Combat can and often does escalate to involve those not involved in the initial phase of the conflict as additional resources are called in by one or both sides.

Interesting I read your thoughts on combat. Sounds alot like Crips and Bloods mentality when they have shoot outs in the street. Or the incident that happen downtown on salisbury where several innonence people were killed as well. Or the case of mistaking identity when drug dealers shoot someone down at a gas station who looks someone they were beefing with. Also its interesting because they intend to attack one or a group of indiviual but alot times collateral damage happens. Its usually involving two separate groups of indivuals with similiar ideologies who have different agendas. Be it terriority, Finacial gain or maybe pure revenge for someone in their clique who shot down.

The first definition for combat is "a fight or contest between individuals or groups
"

Interesting it could be a contest or a fight. Combat is not always with uzi, ak-47 and nine milli's.




Mr Punch you made some great Points concerning getting a Armored Vest an placing dots on it. An practice striking those points on moving opponent. That is pretty good actually. But realistically The points on the center line are so close together that one just merely has to continously hit down the conception line with enough force an you will acheive your goal. Just hitting a point one time may not render the desire effect. Although it may render some pain in your opponent an make them loose interest in continuing the fight. An that way you would have defending your self an can walk away with out having to do serious harm.

I believe with Wing Chun you should fight renlentlessly and with out restraint. But this is my opinion of course.

The Kuen Kuit says:

Enemies are fought fiercely and attacks may be initiated in order to gain control.

Also it is written:

Once an initial attack is made, it is followed in succession until the target is no more.

Of course I don't mean go on a killing spree. Fighting is scary and depending on who your fighting having 3 to 10 years in Muay Thai and Jiujitsu may not prevent you from getting your arse beat down and then placed in a choke hold by a 17 year old six foot 290lbs Vice Lord who entry into the Set is to beat down some civilian who walks by. An low and behold its you. Some say I am speaking about fantasy stuff. But Not really. When I go to visit my brother who use to live on street where atleast one person is shot an killed on his street atleast once a month an usually every weekend during the summer. Being aware that a possible Jack Move could occur at anytime An i am not even thinking about trying to defend myself but just simply stay alive at all cost. Are dating a woman who just moved to projects due to finiacial sitituations or going to a woman's house who I met in the club who lives in a high gang problem area. To me its very real. Going to visit relatives or going to a certain church where the area has its problems can be a opportunity for problem. I remember this year and last year I went to two funerals that were in problem areas. So I am always on guard. An keep my car alarm on at all times.

I think differently than many of you. Because my Family, History and Lifestyle is different. I think of ways to maximize my Wing Chun. I don't want to be like some kung fu guy who does forms all day an doesn't fight and lacks stopping power. I feel the practioner should be strong, His art should fierce and his fighting skills should be dangerous. This is my opinion. Not for mere competitions and sports but for life. Otherwise why train. Whats the purpose of taking a MARTIAL art. If you do not learn it for its Martial applications.

[Yoshiyahu]

Before when I started this topic. it was concerning a Kung Found with in Wing Chun that seems to be ignored by many people. Why is that. A technique with out skill behind it is usesless. With in Sil Lim Tao you have finger strikes. Whats the purpose?

Also some wing chun lineages include the Phoenix Eye Fist and Ginger Fist. With out proper conditioning these Techniques are useless. You must acquire the Kung to be able to properly apply the technique.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...51&postcount=1


This information I shared earlier

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...0&postcount=31



I am sharing information I feel will greatly increase one's options with Wing Chun.

You can develop many things in WC
1.Iron Fingers
2.Peircing Toe Kick
3.Iron Palm
4.Iron Arms
5.Phoenix Eye Fist

These Kungs can make your Wing Chun more formidable.

AS for Finger training many doubt it's real aunthencity.

Well what does Kuen Kuit say?

- Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once.

- The phoenix eye punch has no compassion.

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/ma...it.htm#Biu_Jee


I am not speaking of Chi Magic or Mysterious powers. I am speaking of traditional hard training which will give one a well conditioned Wing Chun System. Even a Knive needs to be sharpen. Wing Chun is the knife and the kungs are a blade that has been newly sharpen!

Bil Gee and eagle claw kung fu
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBL...n+iron+fingers

Snake Hand and Ginger Fist mention here
http://books.google.com/books?id=t36...un+phoneix+eye


Later on this speaks of conditioning too!
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBL...iron+sand+palm

[chusauli]

According the dicitionary Chusauli whats the definition of combat?

I believe with Wing Chun you should fight renlentlessly and with out restraint. But this is my opinion of course.

The Kuen Kuit says:

Enemies are fought fiercely and attacks may be initiated in order to gain control.

Also it is written:

Once an initial attack is made, it is followed in succession until the target is no more.

I think differently than many of you. Because my Family, History and Lifestyle is different. I think of ways to maximize my Wing Chun. I don't want to be like some kung fu guy who does forms all day an doesn't fight and lacks stopping power. I feel the practioner should be strong, His art should fierce and his fighting skills should be dangerous. This is my opinion. Not for mere competitions and sports but for life. Otherwise why train. Whats the purpose of taking a MARTIAL art. If you do not learn it for its Martial applications.

Yoshiyahu,

You certainly don't need me to look up a word in the dictionary - provided you can spell the word properly.

And you are free to do what you want, but always know there will be retribution and the law. Relying on old Kuen Kuit not in accord with the times is foolish, naive and dangerous.

Of course, it might just be your age or ignorance. You learn MARTIAL ART, not MARTIAL art, or martial ART, so that you can learn to walk away from most conflict, because that you know who you truly are and are capable of knowing outcome ahead of time. If you need it, its there, and you must know you can always avoid a majority of conflict. Wu/Mo means to stop conflict, save a life, protect a life, but no killing. I think it was a disservice for you to not educate yourself on self defense and the law.

Your mentality shows more of a thug-like, or animalistic side, completely on the lower three chakras of power, control, reproduction. It is a mentality based on greed, anger, ignorance. I hope you reform your nature and find more peace, or at least educate yourself better, perhaps move into a better environment, and maintain vigilance if you must enter these areas.

I was like that, too. I grew up a chinaman in Manhattan's low income Spanish Harlem. I thought and trained like a thug for years. I also had a lot of street fights and stupid conflicts. But now I know better.

Might I suggest:

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Se...1713518&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavi...1713545&sr=1-1

Best regards,

[Yoshiyahu]

I feel what you are saying about the law. I have two friends who are cops and cousin who is a cop too. So I understand. By no means do I got out all texas ranger style. But if something was to occur where I was faced against some thugs. I would more than likely try to hurt them if they didnt hurt me first. Thug mentality call it what you will. Ignorance no...maybe arrogance Greed no...Yes Fear and Anger will play a factor. But my reason for hurting them badly would be more Fear than anger. Before MA's training I was a scary kid. So because of that I see fighting differently. As for Power. I wish to over power my foe and control them...As for reproduction I only wish to shoot blanks if i can...lol as for chakaras i dont believe in that garbage...

Yoshiyahu,

You certainly don't need me to look up a word in the dictionary - provided you can spell the word properly.

And you are free to do what you want, but always know there will be retribution and the law. Relying on old Kuen Kuit not in accord with the times is foolish, naive and dangerous.

Of course, it might just be your age or ignorance. You learn MARTIAL ART, not MARTIAL art, or martial ART, so that you can learn to walk away from most conflict, because that you know who you truly are and are capable of knowing outcome ahead of time. If you need it, its there, and you must know you can always avoid a majority of conflict. Wu/Mo means to stop conflict, save a life, protect a life, but no killing. I think it was a disservice for you to not educate yourself on self defense and the law.

Your mentality shows more of a thug-like, or animalistic side, completely on the lower three chakras of power, control, reproduction. It is a mentality based on greed, anger, ignorance. I hope you reform your nature and find more peace, or at least educate yourself better, perhaps move into a better environment, and maintain vigilance if you must enter these areas.

I was like that, too. I grew up a chinaman in Manhattan's low income Spanish Harlem. I thought and trained like a thug for years. I also had a lot of street fights and stupid conflicts. But now I know better.

Might I suggest:

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Se...1713518&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavi...1713545&sr=1-1

Best regards,

[Genetic]

Yoshiyahu,
I think it was a disservice for you to not educate yourself on self defense and the law.

Okay, it is possibly a difference between US and UK law, but your defenition of Self Defense (as a legal term):

"Self Defense is a legal term; Basically it means you must break off your attack as soon as the opponent breaks off his attack to you. If you continue, you are doing aggravated assault (illegal) and dueling (illegal). Of course, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV...you'd best check with Terence Niehoff."

This isnt the case in the UK.

In the UK you are allowed to use reasonable force if you consider yourself to be in danger. This is before you are attacked i.e premptive strikes are legal if you consider yourself to be in danger, and as long as you are in danger, prior to an opponent being rendered unconscious or incapable of further retribution.

Which makes a lot of sense.