Do you think your style has all the answers?

[General Kwan]

My style knows not all the answers............it doesn't even know half the questions.

[bean curd]

jon,

" the average hakka student from a family martial art would absolutly obliterate most advanced students from strong styles.

big words for someone who said they didn't know much about the style, can you elaborate on which family(s) ? what strong styles ? and what comparision do you have to " obliterate advanced students "

[Merryprankster]

Hey look,

I'm not insulting SPM. I don't know the first thing about it other than what I've learned from Ginger, and I'm not doubting its power.

But let me tell you something that is TRUE. It is TRUE that a closed system stagnates. It's like the galapagos islands or hawaii. Beautiful things evolved there, but animals from other places, that have been subjected to greater evolutional pressures, are having a FIELD DAY with the local flora and fauna.

By accepting the challenges, as you said these styles do, they are keeping themselves fit for survival, so to speak.

That said, you hit the nail on the head when you discussed the training--if it includes tough, full speed work on a resisting opponent then you're set. That is the single biggest factor to successful training, regardless of what style you choose.

Where you're off the mark is discussing its danger because of its 'purity,' and the fact that it isn't taught to outsiders. It's purity and lack of proliferation have little to do with it... it's in the hard training. Boxing is highly prolific, yet a good boxer is an exceptionally dangerous person because of how hard they train.

Also, I'm reasonably familiar with the Hakka, for a person with no Chinese background. Given their somewhat nomadic history and lack of acceptance by the Chinese wherever they went, I can imagine that they developed some highly effective ways to beat on people and kept those arts alive. I know that the Hakka are reputed to be the toughest bargainers in China and some of the shrewdest businessmen. I believe many of them did rather well in real estate near/in hong kong. Aren't most of them in the Southwestern regions of China now?

For the record, the Hakka are ingenious with foods. I like their fondness for strong flavors. Salt-baked shrimp and their stuffed bean curd being two of my favorites. Also genius is their way with preserved vegetables. Nice touch, that.

[jon]

You are perfectly right... It was a pretty silly statement.
My point was more that Hakka students in a family structure are usualy trained a lot stronger.
They DO practice full force and for the real deal, often doing full contact sparring and the like.
The other thing which i dont want to go into to much becouse i dont know enough about such things other than what ive read and picked up 'around the campfire'. Is that many Hakka systems often contain very detailed knowledge of the human body and how to systematicly take it down. These things are in all arts but are usualy taught LAST as part of the medical aspects.
Hakka styles due to the fact its infamily often train such things from almost the word go.
This simply means an average hakka spm student would proberly know how to kill or maim someone with a single blow very easily.
I wasnt trying to put down students of other arts, heck im a hung ga student. I just wouldnt want to go up against a hakka spm man of the same training length. Thats just me though. Same reason i wouldnt want to go up against a monk who had been training the same length.
As for how ive gotten my information...
From my sifu, from books ive read and from talking to others.
Ive have never claimed to be an authority on the subject. Its all just my personal exposure.

[Steven T. Richards]

Merry 'P',

Adaptive radiation is the key for isolated populations of martial arts sub-cultures 'evolving' out from their common ancetsor. Given a few generations, any given two pai will be very different - even from within the same 'family'.

There is a lot of SPM on the net, a lot is on video, much of it is very different, the similarities masking adaptive changes that have ocurred in the generations since their common origin.

There exist 'origin myths' which are taken as literal truths that explain these differences, and these are 'believed in' with much force, so much so that much time is spent in denouncing each other and issuing challenges to kong-Sau.

SPM has a very few principels and characteristics taht translate more or less evenly between pai, but there are very marked differences too. any answer to the question comparing it with wing-Chun would need to take those differences into consideration. It really isn't possible to give an encompassing response - in many ways there is as much if not more diversity between SPM Pai as there are those between SPM and other arts.

I've tried answering some of the technically based questions (and asking some too) on the Wing-Chun and Southern KF forums. Some responses were informed and mature - others - emotive attachments to bigotry and dogma.

Personally I tend not be popular with a lot of other martial artists, because I am too modern for the traditionalists, but too traditional for the post-modernists: I require proof for asertions, and the application of demonstrable and/or dialectivcal reasoning in debate - otherwise I see the next man's opinion as good or bad as my own - and all so called 'histories', 'theories' etc as relative truths produced by a martial arts sub-culture and nothing more.

That said, my Chinese family (adopted) has no problem with my viewpoints, as I've proved my loyalty and dedication to oriental martial arts for some 36 years - and I am privileged to be a nominated co-successor to a Hakka Grandmaster.

None of the above necessarily endears me to other westerners whose ambitions in SPM may exceed any right that may have to credibilty or acceptance by the Hakka community.

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

BTW,

The identity of 'Gingerfist' is not known with 'certainty' to me. He has not made it openly known, so anything I may believe is simply that - and not proof.

I have asked around but have received blanket denials. He seems to know something about me, and, in drawing me out presumably has some purpose - although what I do not 'know'.

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Jon,

Just as an addenda, your comments on SPM re training anatomy, vital point attacks and such from teh word go is spot on accurate for 'real deal' Hakka arts as taught behind closed doors.

Steve.

[jon]

I think the reason Ginger was trying to get you on this thread was that people have been expressing some interest in spm. We were hoping maybe you might be willing to share some of your training experience with us.
If this is not possible i totaly understand...
I was wondering if you would tell us maybe some of the history of spm according to your pai. Possibly what sort of tactics you favor or ways of generating power. Maybe what your forms are like?
Also maybe tell us a little of what sort of 'real deal' training you do. This is not just for me mind you. I have an idea as is but its just that, an 'idea'. I would love to hear first hand from someone who is training in the art.
From your profile you sound as though you have some very strong ties to the style, can you maybe share this info with us?
I realise that any answers you give will just be your personal training, Im not asking you to represent the system as a whole.
Again if this isnt possible i will understand.
Respects Jon.

[Kristoffer]

Yes

[Merryprankster]

Mr. Richards,

Jon has pretty much asked the questions that I am interested in. I wouldn't ask much about forms for instance... if you check my profile, you'll see a decided lack of 'Traditional" experience.

Just for the record, I believe your analysis to be spot on--especially requiring appropriate use of the dialectic. Give some empirical evidence and tell me why it influenced you the way it has... that's an argument in the classic sense of the word.

I realize you can't speak to all styles, but there surely must be similarities. Can you speak to those?

Congratulations on being selected as a successor. I realize that you may not have had that as a 'goal in mind,' but nonetheless, somebody found you competent.

You'll understand if I find this whole secrecy thing as silly as it gets. I realize that's very postmodern of me but I also appreciate the stance of those who find it useful and necessary, even if I disagree with them.

Is there a way to, in a friendly manner, spar hard with most SPM practicioners if you are outside the style, or is any request like that regarded as a challenge to most of them?

Is SPM mostly Hakka-family related?

Kristoffer--what system do you do, and why does it have all the answers?

[Kristoffer]

First of all, I dont do one style alone, the martial art system that I do is Shuai Shiao combined with my sifus family 5 animal kungfu style. That and things my sifu has learned through many years of fighting and military. You kinda dwell into this state of martial art after a while. so I guess I cant really say that my style has all the answers,, since I am a mixed martial artist in your eyes. But what I do know is that no matter how many questions I can come up with I al´ways find the answers in what I do.
If u dont mind, Ill dont list all the answers to all martial questions since that would take quite some while.

[Kristoffer]

oh wait.. my style doesnt have the internal aspects. It has some, standing qi-gong stuff. But My sifu has some experience in Taichi and courses are availible. I just dont do them.
On a side note, our forms are very Hsing-I like, kinda linear but applications and "animal tecniques" are very circular, move-around-opponent, Bagua like.

[Starchaser107]

About two years ago I was in Florida for competition, I saw someone in the southern division perform spm , the guy won the division. his form looked "different" some people thought it looked a bit funny, but others like myself saw something else.
One thing I remember was quite a bit of "jerking" or "spastic" like motions although im not quite sure if that defines my meaning adequately. I also dont know what type of Spm it was
but it left alot of us with a lasting impression beit good or bad.
I'll ask some of my Hakka friends if they know anything about spm, but most of them are like second or third generation chinese in the island so I doubt it that theyll know, maybe thier parents will though. Im not holding my breath.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello All,

SPM history is one of the most contentious of all issues and causes a lot of bad feeling. Very recently for example, because I had written something that apparently contradicted the interests of one particular group within a broader branch of Jook-Lum Mantis (by broader I mean that the contention was not shared by others within that Pai) I, and my Pai were threatened with the publication of a letter which would be 'very damaging' to the reputation of our Great-Grandmaster and our current Pai.

My response was to suggest to this group that they present themselves before our Pai, with the letter, assert their belief in the literal truth of it and their intention to insult our Pai, at which point they would be immediately and comprehensively challenged.

The offer was not taken up - but the issue will not go away. The threat has been noted by the Chinese Masters of Jook-Lum in the UK.

So, given the above, I will simply outline the broad facts (as an origin myth) of my Pai.

I belong to the Lee-Yin-Sing branch of Kwangsi Jook-Lum Temple Souhern Praying mantis. There are three main branches each with sub-branches and most probably other groups too who are not so well known (if that is not a contardiction in terms for such a secretive art).

Lee-Yin-Sing (LYS) was a master of Hung-Gar and the Hakka Chu-Gar Praying Mantis system before studying Kwangsi Jook-Lum under Cheung-Yiu-Chung, himself a disciple of Monk Buddha Lee from the temple itself.

Later, LYS chllenged and was defeated by another Kwangsi Monk- Lee-Tik, with whom LYS returned to the Kwangsi temple, and there learned a 'different' version of the Temple Mantis than taht taught by Cheung and received by him from Lee-Siem (Buddha Lee).

LYS's art was different in many ways, summarised as follows:

The art was resolved down into a single long form: Tong-Long Sup-Sam Sau-Faht Kuen (The Thirteen Roads or Laws of Mantis Boxing). There was no 'Som-Bo-Gin' or Three Step Arrow Form, which some consider to be the foundation of SPM.

My personal view is that SBG is a nominalism, a generic name for an elementary set which differs completely between different Pai that simply use the same name - the sets having nothing in common. That said, some make much of the numerology and mysticism to be found within the phrase 'Three Steps Forward' - I do not.

All of LYS's students are freely taught anything and everything that they can learn -under physical and moral pressure until 'failure point'. However, the sequence of the form is withheld beyond the fourth Road, and only passed on on merit. all the applications and principles are given - again up to the limitations of the student, but the 'sequence is withheld on merit.

Two man exercises 'Doi-Chong' which are so common in most SPM Pai are considered s basic and for beginners only. The empahsis is on San-Sau skill under pressure - a fighters art - right from the get go.

The sensitivity drills are based on open Mor-Kiu (feeling the briddge) and then, 'leaking' hand methods - LYS's art is a 'leaking hand skill' rather than one based on a stiff and hard bridge.

The energy in the system becomes progressively more 'yin' and resembles Loi-Gar internal arts (Tai-Chi for example).

The 'Gin-Tan-Ging' 'sudden shock spring power' is unlike most expressions of this energy - developed mainly from the twisting of the feet, waist and the projection of the shoulders. The usual but not exclusive power generation is from the elbows in most SPM.

Variations in structure are acceptable in LYS's Pai as all masters stamp their 'character' onto the 13 Roads set.

LYS's art is known as Lee-Yin-Sing Pai Jook-Lum, as 13 Roads Tong-Long, as Lee-Gar Lam Pai Tong-Long, as Lam-Tong-Long and as Tong-Long Pai.

In our Pai, it is said that a 'proper' name for it is Jook-Lum as Lee-Tik came from that monastry, but, its' 'real name' is simply Lam-Pai Tong-Long (Southern Mantis) or as it is collectively known in the UK as 'Tong-Long Pai' - a joining together of the Lee-Yin-Sing lineage and that from wong-Yuk-Gong, teh senior student of Cheung-Yiu-Chung.

In the USA, the line from the late Grandmaster Lam-Sang is verty well represented. Lam-Sang studied under Cheung-Yiu-Cheung and then went to the Kwangsi Temple with Monk Lee-Siem - Cheung's teacher.

I have extremely good relationships with representatives of Grandmaster Gin-Foon-Mark, and Grandmaster Henry Poo-Yee's respective Pai. I refer to them both as Grandmaster out of respect for these two great and accomplished Si-Fu.

I have also been 'warned' about doing that, from another group, but my answer was that I will continue to do so, I have no reason not to and no satisfactory explanation was oferred as to why I should not acknowledge their rank, sattus, skill and authority from Lam-Sang.

Grandmaster Gin-Foon-Mark says that he knew LYS and that he did indeed return to the Kwangsi Temple and there learned a 'different' version of the Jook-Lum art.

LYS's students fought for HK against Taiwan in full contact tournaments in teh 1950's, my first Si-Fu the late Master Ho-Sing gained a heavyweight semi-final place.

My current Si-Fu is Grandmaster Lee-Lien, son of LYS.

The actual fighting skills and techniques/principles are very unique in LYS's and indeed Ho-Sings art.

The SPM performer that you saw, I think was one of Grandmaster Henry Poo-Yee's people - Khanh Lee, whom I respect in friendship very much. Our form and structure is very different , but we are all from a common origin.

Hope the above helps as an intro.

Steve Richards.

[Merryprankster]

Actually it's confusing as hell.

Thanks though!

Sounds more flexible than some.