Hardowork108 finally put a clip up!

[SimonM]

Thank you for the recipe even if I am not sure if I can trust you.

Use it or not. I was being nice. It's your tea drinking experience either way.

And post video.

[sanjuro_ronin]

if people stop feeding the troll, he'll leave, we had quiet here for a few hours you know

This thread is actually going some where know with GA question about "cross training".

[SimonM]

There is something that is called Chin-na (kum-na) in TCMA. These are grappling style techniques and they can also be applied on the ground. Wrestling arts have existed in China long before even kung fu!

I am familliar with qinna. At its best it's ordinary locking, not different from the locking techniques of dozens of "knucklehead" (read non-chinese) martial arts. At worst its creative poking. So saying "but we have teh qinna" says nothing.

Post video.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am familliar with qinna. At its best it's ordinary locking, not different from the locking techniques of dozens of "knucklehead" (read non-chinese) martial arts. At worst its creative poking. So saying "but we have teh qinna" says nothing.

Post video.

Chin-na, typically, is not a "stand alone' system, it tends to be part of a system.
It can be highly specilaized or very generalized.
Some of the chin-na training exercises are very good.
Chin-na also incorporated "point striking and point blocking"not just joint manipulation.

[Hardwork108]

I am familliar with qinna. At its best it's ordinary locking, not different from the locking techniques of dozens of "knucklehead" (read non-chinese) martial arts. At worst its creative poking. So saying "but we have teh qinna" says nothing.

Post video.

It seems that your knowledge of chin-na is as bad as your knowledge of kung fu. On a positive note, I believe that you make great tea.

Maybe you should visit Dale Dugas for some tea as I hear that he is a "master brewer" and of course his "door is always open".LOL.

[Hardwork108]

Chin-na, typically, is not a "stand alone' system, it tends to be part of a system.
It can be highly specilaized or very generalized.
Some of the chin-na training exercises are very good.
Chin-na also incorporated "point striking and point blocking"not just joint manipulation.

That was correct (yes I am surprised too )

That is it, tell him the truth Sanjuro!

Your wikipedia "technique" is really improving you kung fu "knowledge"...lol,lol.

[Hardwork108]

Just to emphasis.

It is common knowledge that the major styles of kung fu are the result of crosstraining. There is nothing new there and no one is or has denied it.

Of course the "crosstraining" and the resultant change or creation of new styles were in the hands of ACTUAL kung fu MASTERS. These people had understood profoundly the deeper concepts and principles of their given style(s). Then they had gone on to evolve them.

This type of kung fu crosstraining and development is different from the Meathead variety one sees generally today. These masters adopted and infused various techniques and influences within given concepts and principles that were distinct to their style of kung fu. Hence an evolved Choy Li Fut would still look like Choy Li Fut when seen by a "knowing" eye.

The same is true of Wing Chun. Those who know can look at the various lineages of WC and identify the art as WC.

It was not the case of "I know everything so I'll take what works for me from Tae Kwon Do, bjj, Muay Thai and mix it with a little bit of kung fu I know, take it to the ring and call it IMPROVED KUNG FU OR MY KUNG FU!" lOL,LOL,LOL.

I hope that the point I make now is clearer now.

[MasterKiller]

Of course the "crosstraining" and the resultant change or creation of new styles were in the hands of ACTUAL kung fu MASTERS. These people had understood profoundly the deeper concepts and principles of their given style(s). Then they had gone on to evolve them.

These guys became masters BECAUSE they cross-trained and mixed techniques, then used their new technologies to beat others that would not/could not adapt.

No different than what is going on today.

[SimonM]

Chin-na, typically, is not a "stand alone' system, it tends to be part of a system.
It can be highly specilaized or very generalized.
Some of the chin-na training exercises are very good.
Chin-na also incorporated "point striking and point blocking"not just joint manipulation.

That's what I was saying...

HW!08: Still waiting for video of your "authentic wing chun ground fighting techniques". Referring me to a concluded seminar in England is a cop out.

Post video.

[Hardwork108]

That's what I was saying...

HW!08: Still waiting for video of your "authentic wing chun ground fighting techniques". Referring me to a concluded seminar in England is a cop out.

Post video.

You will see videos if my sifu decides to put them up. You will be surprised to know that most traditional kung fu sifus do not go around concerning themselves about how to prove the authenticity of what they do to a bunch of internet knuckleheads.

[MasterKiller]

You will see videos if my sifu decides to put them up. You will be surprised to know that most traditional kung fu sifus do not go around concerning themselves about how to prove the authenticity of what they do to a bunch of internet knuckleheads.

You seem pretty interested in proving it, though. So let's see your videos.

[sanjuro_ronin]

These guys became masters BECAUSE they cross-trained and mixed techniques, then used their new technologies to beat others that would not/could not adapt.

No different than what is going on today.

Correct, something that is pretty much a given.
Look at the links I posted earlier:
Huo was fighting challenges in his 20's and 30's, certainly to young to be a MASTER.

Huo Yuanjia was born 1868
n 1890, a martial artist by the name of Duo came from Henan Province to visit the Huo family. His manner provoked a trial of strength with the boxers of the family. After seeing a demonstration by Yuanjia's elder brother, he was goaded into a fight. Huo Yuanjia’s brother was beaten, but to the family's surprise Yuanjia himself got up and defeated his brother's opponent. His father then officially accepted him and taught his younger son all that he knew. His name started to spread and he soon began defeating neighboring practitioners in local contests. These bouts made Huo Yuanjia famous in his village and the neighboring areas.
Huo Yuanjia's fame came in 1901 when he responded to a challenge...
Between 1909 and 1910 accompanied by his apprentices Liu Zheng Sheng and Zhang Wen Da...
Huo Yuanjia died on August 9th, 1910 at 42 years of age (some say he died the 14th of September 1910) of arsenic poisoning.

[Hardwork108]

These guys became masters BECAUSE they cross-trained and mixed techniques,

Wrong!

You will find that they mastered a given style first and then went on to expand on their profound understanding by training other kung fu styles.

heir new technologies to beat others that would not/could not adapt.

You are making too many assumptions. One somtimes beats another fighter because he is better at fighting and not necessarilly because he has trained in more arts or that his opponent couldn't adapt.

You could crosstrain everyday for 10 years, but would that guarantee that you would beat a hardcore Okinawan karate man who has been training old school every day for 10 years????

No different than what is going on today.

What is happening today is that many MMA-ists use this approach to improve their fighting. Nothing wrong with that and to each his own.

What I take exception to is the fact that some of these MMA-ists put down the traditional kung fu methodology when they have in no way built sufficient understanding to do so.

I also take exception to everybody and their grandmothers calling themselves kung fu masters, "credentials" included! lol.lol.


Do you see where I am coming from?

[Hardwork108]

Correct, something that is pretty much a given.
Look at the links I posted earlier:
Huo was fighting challenges in his 20's and 30's, certainly to young to be a MASTER.

Huo Yuanjia was born 1868
n 1890, a martial artist by the name of Duo came from Henan Province to visit the Huo family. His manner provoked a trial of strength with the boxers of the family. After seeing a demonstration by Yuanjia's elder brother, he was goaded into a fight. Huo Yuanjia’s brother was beaten, but to the family's surprise Yuanjia himself got up and defeated his brother's opponent. His father then officially accepted him and taught his younger son all that he knew. His name started to spread and he soon began defeating neighboring practitioners in local contests. These bouts made Huo Yuanjia famous in his village and the neighboring areas.
Huo Yuanjia's fame came in 1901 when he responded to a challenge...
Between 1909 and 1910 accompanied by his apprentices Liu Zheng Sheng and Zhang Wen Da...
Huo Yuanjia died on August 9th, 1910 at 42 years of age (some say he died the 14th of September 1910) of arsenic poisoning.

I wish that you would stop stating the obvious and actually think a little deeper about this subject.

I hope that I don't live to regret using the "think" word with the knuckleyhead.

[Dale Dugas]

how can we see where you are coming from:

1. We have no idea who are.
2. We have no idea how long you actually have studied.
3. We have no idea if you can do what you say you can do.

Hope that clears it up some.