Northern Mantis Chi sao?

[old8step]

Why your beginner students?Why not you?I'll answer that for you.If by chance I cross hands with you and if by chance(becuase you're so great) I get a few shots in on you it will ruin your invincible sifu "mystique" you hold over your students.I know this because whenever someone from another school showed up it was me and a few others who crossed hands with him,not the "sifu".

Maybe i'm behind becaust i dont' mantis anymore but crossing hands does that mean sparring or fighting. and are you saying that peopel would show up to your school with challenges? Also isnt that the way it should be the student fighting? I mean most schools i am at the trainer is not a current fighter but he teaches the technique so his students can use it.

[EarthDragon]

touching hands, crossing hands is just a term for challenging someone usually its means to test thier skill, as in a fight,not sparring, its not just in mantis as you asked old8step.

And YES you are corrrect it is the lowest level student who would take the challenge not the sifu for various reasons , some of which I posted on the first page.

[old8step]

touching hands, crossing hands is just a term for challenging someone usually its means to test thier skill, as in a fight,not sparring, its not just in mantis as you asked old8step.

And YES you are corrrect it is the lowest level student who would take the challenge not the sifu for various reasons , some of which I posted on the first page.

Ok understood. i was a little confused as the poster i quoted also stated his instructor was scared to cross hands with him and Most camps I am at the fighters woudl never cross hands with the trainer but that doesn't mean the trainer is any less good.

[Tainan Mantis]

You two 8 Step guys heard of Wei fighting students on day 1?

I have heard this from people who there, back in 70's.

Many people came to see him and he would fight them before he taught them.

Not all, just those with already many years of training.

My shifu in Taiwan same thing with me. Cross hands in the temple.
Other students who came to him with experience also had the same experience.

I think that if the teacher likes to fight and someones is experienced, they will fight themselves.

[Three Harmonies]

I would never train with a teacher (exception being if they are ancient) that did not spar with his students. Something wrong with that IMO. Unfortunately 95% of the CMA world falls into this problem!
I have had several teachers who would not touch hands with students for various reasons. Overwhelming majority talked a big talk, but could not walk for ****! One of my biggest gripes with CMA!
To this day Hu Laoshi touches hands with me EVERY time I see him! He is 60+ years old, and over 100#'s smaller than me! No excuse not to touch hands with students!
My attitude stands with BJJ. I tried several schools in the area and noticed that not only did the head instructor often not teach the basic classes, but purple and brown belts claimed they never rolled with him ABSURD!!!!!! Apparently they were comfortable taking peoples money just because they were Brazilian! My instructor rolls with me every class!

Just my 2 cents,
Jake

[Michael Dasargo]

-Tournement Judo
-Push Hands
-Tournament Jiu-Jitsu
-Sticky Hands

...are all isolation drills designed to put a specific set of skills under the microscope and are not meant to reflect the entirety of combat.

A fight will look like a fight, and the trained eye will be able to identify the moments where the isolation drills paid off.

M.Dasargo

[old8step]

I would never train with a teacher (exception being if they are ancient) that did not spar with his students. Something wrong with that IMO. Unfortunately 95% of the CMA world falls into this problem!
I have had several teachers who would not touch hands with students for various reasons. Overwhelming majority talked a big talk, but could not walk for ****! One of my biggest gripes with CMA!
To this day Hu Laoshi touches hands with me EVERY time I see him! He is 60+ years old, and over 100#'s smaller than me! No excuse not to touch hands with students!
My attitude stands with BJJ. I tried several schools in the area and noticed that not only did the head instructor often not teach the basic classes, but purple and brown belts claimed they never rolled with him ABSURD!!!!!! Apparently they were comfortable taking peoples money just because they were Brazilian! My instructor rolls with me every class!

Just my 2 cents,
Jake

Sorry to hear that Jake I've never been at a BJJ school. where the instructior did not roll or at least teach the beginners if anything they were more attentive to the beginners. Who are these instructors out of curiosity. I know every Gracie Academy i've gone to the head instructor would be happy to show moves etc they might not full on roll with a white or blue belt because it would be useless but they would teach themselves. same holds true at BJ's academy and the Inoue's in Hawaii. I've been to Charles, Ralphs, Cesars and Relsons' and these are some of the top Gracies and they are all willing to teach kids to beginners to their top students.

[Three Harmonies]

Well I am not going to get into the "Gracie vs ....." thing. But there are several "Gracie" schools here where that is not the truth! They do not even roll with their senior students.
I also do not agree that rolling with a white or blue belt is "useless." How so? "Useless" for whom??

Mike -
Dead on!

Jake

[EarthDragon]

I dont think anyone is saying that the teacher should'nt touch hands with thier students... the discussion was to touch hands with a guy that walks in off the street. This is a no no

Yes Tainan, I hear Master Wei loved to slap people around who thought they knew something. But we cannot compare the old days in the park in Taipei, to today in the states... too many ego's and lawsuits to worry about.

Personally I learned Go Ju from my sensei who literally beat the crap out of me every class, the school of hard knocks method.
Most students quit becuse of it.
While you can learn this way there is also a happy medium and students can learn without being in pain, but if you can beat your teacher then its time to move on... and techniqally if the teacher has taught correctly and without selfishness his students should be better than him eventually.....

[mantid1]

What if the instructor does a great job at teaching his students...and they become better? Should the instructor continue to fight and lose in front of his students time after time? What would that prove? Why shouldnt the students kick the teacher out and follow the student who defeats the rest? If you allow the teacher whos time has passed to stay....do you make him take all challenges from the younger stronger challengers? Do you stand back an let him get killed? Or...step up and take the challenge for him...because you respect him for who he was and is at present?

Back to my earlier point...if you cant train someone who is younger and stronger than you to become proficient....in a short tim...well.. something is wrong.

Maybe I am confused on what "crossing hands". I thought it would be a full contact type of thing...with someone submitting.....or at least some serious bleeding.

It must be more of a "light sparring".....?

Three harmonies, I would think you should be able to handle yourself fairly well against a 60 year old teacher who weighs 100lbs less.....that is if you were going for real. I know I would put my money on you every time. Im 6ft 2in and I would think twice about going head to head with you.

I have nothing but respect for your teacher and mean nothing negative by the previous statement. I am sure he is a great teacher and an honorable person. But, size and strength does come into play at some point.

I would appreciate it if someone would clear up exactly how you touch hands with students and challengers.

[EarthDragon]

mantid


What if the instructor does a great job at teaching his students...and they become better?
then they branch off and teach others or open thier own schools and continue the cycle.

Why shouldnt the students kick the teacher out and follow the student who defeats the rest?
its called respect.

remeber the show jung fu? when you can snatch the pebble out of master po's hand its time to leave and venture on your own... OK cheesy anaolgy but true none the less


Maybe I am confused on what "crossing hands". I thought it would be a full contact type of thing...with someone submitting.....or at least some serious bleeding.
it is.............. but that depens on the teacher, you can have your arse handed to you without being hurt at all, or you can walk away with contusions and a broken bone.

Three harmonies, I would think you should be able to handle yourself fairly well against a 60 year old teacher who weighs 100lbs less.....that is if you were going for real. I know I would put my money on you every time. Im 6ft 2in and I would think twice about going head to head with you.

????????????????

I would appreciate it if someone would clear up exactly how you touch hands with students and challengers.

me personally I fight my students all the time and show them you can defeat your opponent without having to hurt them physically and I do it all the time, with them.......... If I fight someone outside of the class room just the opposite. defend myself and quickly end the flight ASAP.............If someonme walked into my school and wanted to fight me, I would decline......

[Three Harmonies]

Mantid, you have to do more than that to upset me

Size and strength certainly do factor in. But skill is a great equalizer. Hu will be the first to admit to you that he would not stand and trade strikes with me! Tim has said the same thing to me. But both of them have much, much more skill than I do. For now they trump me pretty much all the time. I get the occasional throw or strike in though

[notanexit]

"Back on subject,chi sao or sticky hands is a fun drill,but there are other things that can make you a better fighter.Most of the time it starts slow but when somene is getting the better of the other person,it becomes a slap fest.At that point you are no longer learning how to listen or stick.It almost becomes a fight.Anyone else has this problem?"

Not much sticking taking place there. I have little to no recollection of instruction concerning the development of sticking and listening skills. As far as it becoming a slap fest, yes. Wasn't that the usual culmination of sticking at the school? It is kind of hard to learn sticky hands much less how to teach it by attending some seminars and what not. The curriculum, when I was there, consisted predominately of longfist forms and some derivative drills. Very little yielding, if any. I am sure that the curriculum evolved after I left as he continued to pick up new sets from videos, books, and other people

.Correct.I was never really taught to do sticky hands.I learned by practicing with other students and getting hit over and over.The curriculum didn't really evolve.Just more stuff piled on in order to have more tests and sashes(Mo'Money,Mo'Money).Also,it makes that final test and altered letter further away.

To much ego and politics there. When I left and began studying elsewhere I learned how much I should have learned and then much much more.

Glad that you didn't get brainwashed and stay there too long like I did.

Notanexit

Open your own school

.

Not a bad idea.If the disciple can send a taji student to dallas to teach mantis,then I can teach mantis and taji.But honestly I would just teach mantis.I couldn't live with myself teaching the same thing and telling people that they are doing something different.

Maybe i'm behind becaust i dont' mantis anymore but crossing hands does that mean sparring or fighting. and are you saying that peopel would show up to your school with challenges?

From my experience,sticky hands is a friendly exchange between two people.Its not meant as a challenge or fight.Just a test of listening skills.

[

QUOTE=Three Harmonies;917791]I would never train with a teacher (exception being if they are ancient) that did not spar with his students. Something wrong with that IMO. Unfortunately 95% of the CMA world falls into this problem!

Because 95% of sifus have a "I'm invincible" attitude and cannot allow their students to see them as less than that.

To this day Hu Laoshi touches hands with me EVERY time I see him! He is 60+ years old, and over 100#'s smaller than me! No excuse not to touch hands with students!

I agree,and you are very fortunate to have such a teacher.

My attitude stands with BJJ. I tried several schools in the area and noticed that not only did the head instructor often not teach the basic classes, but purple and brown belts claimed they never rolled with him ABSURD!!!!!! Apparently they were comfortable taking peoples money just because they were Brazilian! My instructor rolls with me every class!

If they are not careful,bjj will end up like cma.Producing a lot of cash,but not producing quality students

Maybe I am confused on what "crossing hands". I thought it would be a full contact type of thing...with someone submitting.....or at least some serious bleeding.

It must be more of a "light sparring".....?

You would get a bloody lip here or there.But like I said before,it would start off slow.But then someone would slip through a block and hit the other guy(not maliciuosly)Then instead of trying to stick or listen to the other guys movement,he would just get even by hitting him back.Now you have slap fest and no one benefits.One senior student(a good friend of mine)had long arms and really good at sticking.Naturally, students had problems getting through his guard.At one point I had junior mantis students and taji people complaining to me about how he wouldn't "let" them "win"(see a pattern?)

NO offense intended to the Cottrell camp.

I wish very much to offend him and his camp.

I would train with Mr. Cottrell when it comes to traditional CMA.....no doubt about it.

I wouldn't call him traditional.I would say its more of a hybrid system of various martial arts too many to list.He hides it by doing traditional forms.About my previous statement.The altered letter disciple has many zombies on this forum who attack me.I assumed you were a part of this.So I will apologize and remove you from the zombie list.Back on subject.How has sticking and listening helped you in a fight or sparring match?

[EarthDragon]

notanexit,
you posted this.......

You would get a bloody lip here or there.But like I said before,it would start off slow.But then someone would slip through a block and hit the other guy(not maliciuosly)Then instead of trying to stick or listen to the other guys movement,he would just get even by hitting him back.Now you have slap fest and no one benefits.One senior student(a good friend of mine)had long arms and really good at sticking.Naturally, students had problems getting through his guard.At one point I had junior mantis students and taji people complaining to me about how he wouldn't "let" them "win"(see a pattern?)

in response to this post by old8step

Quote:
Maybe I am confused on what "crossing hands". I thought it would be a full contact type of thing...with someone submitting.....or at least some serious bleeding.

It must be more of a "light sparring".....?

Your confusing chi sao, sticky hand excersize with crossing hands.. a term used when fighting with a fellow Martial artist.

May I ask how many years you studied with Steve? or MA in general?

[ironfenix]

there is push hands, sticky hands, and crossing hands. The first two are training drills in my opinion. The 3rd is anything goes. I can tell you personally Chen Style push hands helps with your stand up grappling and not getting thrown.