Phillip B doing his thing

[t_niehoff]

what about fighting related drills?

It depends on HOW you drill.

One sort of drills are essentially snippets of fighting (situational) -- for example, drilling passing the guard -- where you practice exactly what you are going to do as you are going to do it under realistic conditions. As you are fighitng within the drill, you will develop fighting skills by doing these sorts of drills.

The other sort of drills are prep work: developing coordination, etc. so that you can do the fighting and drilling mentioned above. This won't develop fighting skill but will enable you to do the fighting to develop fighting skill.

[couch]

It depends on HOW you drill.

One sort of drills are essentially snippets of fighting (situational) -- for example, drilling passing the guard -- where you practice exactly what you are going to do as you are going to do it under realistic conditions. As you are fighitng within the drill, you will develop fighting skills by doing these sorts of drills.

The other sort of drills are prep work: developing coordination, etc. so that you can do the fighting and drilling mentioned above. This won't develop fighting skill but will enable you to do the fighting to develop fighting skill.

You fight like you train.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It depends on HOW you drill.

One sort of drills are essentially snippets of fighting (situational) -- for example, drilling passing the guard -- where you practice exactly what you are going to do as you are going to do it under realistic conditions. As you are fighitng within the drill, you will develop fighting skills by doing these sorts of drills.

The other sort of drills are prep work: developing coordination, etc. so that you can do the fighting and drilling mentioned above. This won't develop fighting skill but will enable you to do the fighting to develop fighting skill.

Agreed.

[t_niehoff]

It continues to surprise me that people put up videos of themselves doing forms or chi sao (as though this was somehow impressive) and that others fawn over them.

To me it is like riding a bicycle.

You can create some bike riding forms where you go through the motions of bike riding (peddling, steering, braking, etc.) in the air. But does performance of those bike riding forms say anything about your bike riding skill? Wouldn't you feel silly showing others how "well" you perform your bike riding forms? Or arguing over whose bike riding forms were more "correct"? Or how your "lineage" had the original bike riding forms?

And then you can get a bike and put training wheels on so that you can practice riding a bike in an unrealisitc, limited way. Chi sao is WCK with training wheels. Wouldn't you feel silly showing everyone how well you can ride your bike with the training wheels? Or having training wheel bike races (chi sao contests)? Or fawning over how well so-and-so rides his training wheel bike? Or even thinking that riding with training wheels in any way prepares youfor mountain biking?

Does it help you learn to ride by practcing with training wheels? Perhaps. But you learn to really ride the bike by actually riding the bike without the training wheels. You become a better bike rider by really riding the bike. In fact, your bike riding skill will correspond to howmuch quality time you put in actually riding the bike -- not practicing your bike riding forms or riding around with the training wheels on.

[k gledhill]

No. You develop a fighter (and fighting skill) ONLY by and through fighting, not by playing chi sao (however well you think someone plays).

I thought that was obvious......what do you think happens when you learn to fight rather than do chi-sao games...? you fight more and understand the drill serves and end goal....not the end itself.....

you have to understand the system before talking Terence

[sanjuro_ronin]

It continues to surprise me that people put up videos of themselves doing forms or chi sao (as though this was somehow impressive) and that others fawn over them.

To me it is like riding a bicycle.

You can create some bike riding forms where you go through the motions of bike riding (peddling, steering, braking, etc.) in the air. But does performance of those bike riding forms say anything about your bike riding skill? Wouldn't you feel silly showing others how "well" you perform your bike riding forms? Or arguing over whose bike riding forms were more "correct"? Or how your "lineage" had the original bike riding forms?

And then you can get a bike and put training wheels on so that you can practice riding a bike in an unrealisitc, limited way. Chi sao is WCK with training wheels. Wouldn't you feel silly showing everyone how well you can ride your bike with the training wheels? Or having training wheel bike races (chi sao contests)? Or fawning over how well so-and-so rides his training wheel bike? Or even thinking that riding with training wheels in any way prepares youfor mountain biking?

Does it help you learn to ride by practcing with training wheels? Perhaps. But you learn to really ride the bike by actually riding the bike without the training wheels. You become a better bike rider by really riding the bike. In fact, your bike riding skill will correspond to howmuch quality time you put in actually riding the bike -- not practicing your bike riding forms or riding around with the training wheels on.

People demo chi-sao and forms to show their ability at doing chi-sao and forms, not to show their fighting ability, if people choose to view it that way, that is their problem, no?

[k gledhill]

Being good has a LOT to do with the 'way' you think and the 'way' you approach Wing Chun (or any other martial art). I also get what you're saying about wrist vs. elbow programming, though. But THAT argument has been going on as long as Ball vs. K1 vs. Heel shifting!!! LOL

way of thinking= knowing your developing to be a fighter not a performer of forms , and drill mastery or a chi-sao'er doing hours of trapping and feeling there is a simple attack process, using the by products of the training. Most like I was , are shown the parts as moves/ bytes, that fall apart in a free for all of real time fighting...you need to move relative to a given line of force by the opponent naturally, you have to have techniques that allow one to attack as you deliver tactically defensive responses ...still attacking...

There is a systematic process, with redundant levels [ dan chi sao for one] chi-sao as well, there is a lot of redundancy in chisao , like using two arms extended equally together when fighting , seeing competitions with this as the goal to use 2 arms together in a clinchlike fight defeats the whole idea

I had a lot of fights personally , and never saw a connection with the 'self-defense side most learn today. AKA moves ...when you fight you are aggressive and attack people.
You go at them like an animal ..grrrr so if you attack people , the system helps to develop an ability to do this ...straight lines at angles to other lines of force will naturally
cross each others path .

You wont see this if your shown a center-punch blast as fast as you can then do pak sao kick boxing with a jamming bong ...

[k gledhill]

There is a distinct and simple process , lost on many on the way because they adopt a chi-sao mind of over trapping over using 2 arms , over feeling....why ? simple they arent aware of a process, or lines and angles to deliver the fighting concepts...instead it is lost to
over drilling redundant levels ...adding more elaborate actions INSIDE an already redundant stage....making it more seems to make it a better thing ...NO

Chi-sao serves as a platform for 2 equal students to engage in random sides of give and take and ingrain natural reactions , while perfecting certain arm/elbow /stance/balance positions for fighting ....they wont adopt these same positions when engaging the opponent....the fight wont be as chisao. So why try to feel 1st , chase a hand to trap it, stand in a drilling posture ...use 2 hands extended standing in front of your enemy...?

One of the very basic ideas is to fight 50% of the person with 100% of yourself...you can do this if you train to use one of your arms as 2 per single strike and think to engage 1/2
the person with timing and perseverance of an end ..to defeat by attacking.

We see it in the UFC , guy gets hurt ,, time lapse of training to back off and start again..then the brain kicks in attack commences and the space has allowed the guy to recover ...or the ensuing attack is done on the front toes lunging with flailing strikes off balance , guy being attacked stops, attacker doesn't , ...loss of space for lack of training to ATTACK people in the right space , right time , right place.....with a simple idea working for you.

VT isnt a 'style' its the attack you see people delivering ......it only looks like VT if you stand and pose ; )

[Ultimatewingchun]

Look, what Phillip shows in that video is good chi sao. He understands a lot of things, including good technique in both attacking and defending, the body mechanics of good driving power, good delivery of short range vertical fist punching and palm striking, deflecting power, getting advantegeous body angles, etc. He's fast, he's aggressive, he knows how to stick to his opponent in order to control him, unbalance him, push him here, pull him there, and so on.

But it's just chi sao.

It's not fighting. It's a drill (chi sao) that enables a wing chun practitioner to develop certain things crucial to his close quarter striking art - but it has serious limitations in the overall scheme of things as regards what total, all-out fighting is about.

Just go back and look at what Phillip's partner/opponent is doing throughout the entire video.

And then ask yourself the following question: How much of what I saw from that guy is what I'm ever likely to see coming at me in a real fight, or a sparring match, (especially against a non wing chun guy), in a serious tournament, etc ???

Chi sao skills (and related drilling) are essential for developing and maintaining good overall wing chun expertise - but actual sparring/fighting is more essential. Because that's where the rubber hits the road. Until then you've just been tuning up the engine.

That's the bottom line here. After a certain amount of time spent learning the system, (and one has to assume that Phillip has reached that point long ago)...at that point...

for every hour of chi sao (and chi sao related drills) you do - you should be spending at least two hours actually sparring/fighting.

That's how I see it.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . .
for every hour of chi sao (and chi sao related drills) you do - you should be spending at least two hours actually sparring/fighting.

That's how I see it.

Victor, how can you say such a blasphemous thing? You don't need to fight to learn fighting. You just need forms, drills and chi sao.
Phil

[Buddha_Fist]

But it's just chi sao.

It's not fighting. It's a drill (chi sao) that enables a wing chun practitioner to develop certain things crucial to his close quarter striking art - but it has serious limitations in the overall scheme of things as regards what total, all-out fighting is about.

Just go back and look at what Phillip's partner/opponent is doing throughout the entire video.

And then ask yourself the following question: How much of what I saw from that guy is what I'm ever likely to see coming at me in a real fight, or a sparring match, (especially against a non wing chun guy), in a serious tournament, etc ???

Chi sao skills (and related drilling) are essential for developing and maintaining good overall wing chun expertise - but actual sparring/fighting is more essential. Because that's where the rubber hits the road. Until then you've just been tuning up the engine.

So?

The video shows Philipp coaching his student by constantly checking elbow positions (what you see as a push), Wu Sao, etc. under pressure and in a continuously changing situation, hence instilling several habits so they hold up when his student is put under real pressure.

He's not sparring with a student, he's coaching.

Nuff said.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that sometimes people forget that someone demos things when they wanna show what is being demo'd or when they are instructing.
You don't see many people instructing in a middle of an all out fight.
Sure it would be great to see the "you see it taught, you see it fought" way of the Dog Brothers in their instructionals, but lest be truthful, for online clips and such, you don't really have the time or space to do more than demo.
Now, that said, it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone to follow the principles of:
YOU SEE IT TAUGHT, YOU SEE IT FOUGHT, when doing instructionals.

[TenTigers]

You don't see many people instructing in a middle of an all out fight.
.

there was a story of Bruce Lee doing just that, on the set of one of his movies. One of the extras was talking s**** and saying that he wasn't a fighter, just an actor, etc. Bruce Lee and him went at it, and while Lee was hitting him he was correcting his techniques. The guy was bloodied up, yet thanked him at the end.
-or so the story goes.

Probabaly one of those,"You're head's open" -thwack! type of "Instruction."

[taojkd]

I think that sometimes people forget that someone demos things when they wanna show what is being demo'd or when they are instructing.

I think the vid is a demo, not fighting.

As for the chi sao argument, i only train reactions in chi sao where i know exactly what the application is from sparring. I'm sure there are plenty of techniques that only exist in chi sao for scoring a hit (given that both arms are extended), but don't translate well into actual fighting. I don't really care to "play" chi sao as a competition. I like to play chi sao to fine tune reactions as a means of training in good muscle memory (i.e. a refinement drill).

Personally, i have found that sparring for a round, then taking one bad habit you did when sparring and training in good muscle memory in chi sao for a round (-repeat) is a good way to get better at fighting. Fight some, refine some, fight some more etc.

[t_niehoff]

I thought that was obvious......what do you think happens when you learn to fight rather than do chi-sao games...? you fight more and understand the drill serves and end goal....not the end itself.....

If it was obvious to you, then you wouldn't marvel at videos of people riding around with the training wheels on.

you have to understand the system before talking Terence

People who talk about "understanding" are the theory/fantasy guys.

It's not about "understanding" -- it's about skill (being able to do it). And skill doesn't come from "understanding" (if anything, understanding comes from skill). You don't "understand" how to ride a bike: you learn the skill and then get better by doing it. With a skill you talk about "knowing how to" as opposed to "understanding" (for example, you "know how to" wrestle or box as opposed to "understanding" wrestling or boxing), and you can only demonstrate that (skill) by doing it.

Videos of people doing bike riding motions in the air (forms) or riding around with the training wheels on (chi sao) doesn't show they can ride the bike or "know how to" ride the bike.