Lost in Translation...

[t_niehoff]

Sounds like the the way I teach WC, and they way I've been taught.

Thanks

James

No it's not.

Boxers train to be fighters.

Boxer's,like all functional martial artists, learn fundamental skills in the context of how they will use them (in fighting), practice using those skills as they will use them, and then use them as they have trained -- 1 to 1 to 1 (they're learning looks like their training which looks like their boxing). Classical WCK training, like any TMA, doesn't have that 1 to 1 to 1 correspondence.

Boxing coaches are people who have developed good, proficient skills (boxing in the ring) themselves. The overwhelming majority of WCK teachers have little in the way of genuine skills (being able to do what they train to do).

They emphasize conditioning and their conditioning drills are "sport specific".

They make sparring the core of their training, and recognize that you only learn to box and develop your boxing skills by boxing.

[t_niehoff]

According to T, all we do in class is forms and talk about the theory of tan/bong/fok, and how undefeatable it will make us, then we all go out for nacho's and watch the hockey game on the big screen

No, I don't think that. What you are doing is using a strawman -- mis-stating my position to refute it.

I just wanted to confirm for myself a point. T has a predjuice for sure against most WC/TMA people, and puts us all in a pigeon hole, all the while not realizing that what we are doing is not so different from what he says the functional fighting arts are doing.

If TMAists were doing what functional martial artists were doing, they would be getting the same results. But they're not. They never have. The evidence of that is overwhelming. (Like when the WCK guys from HK went to fight the Thais).

What TMAists, including some in WCK do, are some things that have some similarity to what functional martial artists do and convince themselves that "we do that too." But they are not the same and they don't have the same priority/focus.

Much of what TMAists do is waste their time -- at least from the perspective of developing fighting skills. Forms, unrealistic drills like chi sao, are essentailly wastes of time when it comes to developing skills. So if you have a two-hour training session and you spend most ofthe time doing forms, chi sao, san sao, etc. all that time is spent not developing skills. Throw in theory, it you go further off-track.

It is just done in our own way. Like you said the boxing coach teaches you the basics, the stance, punch and movement (no different from a Sifu teaching form or basics), the the b coach teaches how to hit the pads and bag, no different from the Sifu teaching chi sau or Mok Jong (learning how to apply the basics with a partner or preset training apperatus),

That's not the same at all. Chi sao and mook jong isn't application -- it isn't what you will do in a fight as you will do it. All you have to do is spar with some nonWCK guy that presses you and you'll see that nothing resembling those things you practice come out as your practice doing them.

[/QUOTE]
then the b coach lets you play with it, same as the Sifu having the student play the chi sau, the footwork drills, the conditioning drills on the pads and bags, dummy, etc...
[/QUOTE]

This is like saying "apples and oranges are a lot alike -- they both are fruit, are tasty, etc."!

When the b coach thinks your ready he puts you in to spar, same with the Sifu, when your ready the intensity increases, you gor sau, you spar, you do things in a random matter where the chances of getting hit are ever increasing. Same process, different engines being built.

Thanks again Sanjuro

James

Chisao, gor sao is nothing -- NOTHING -- like fighting. It is just a UNREALISTIC EXERCISE to teach you a very limited set of contact skills. Anyone who spars will see that. They will see that they can't do in fighting what they do in chi sao, because all kinds of variables that we exclude from chi sao are present in fighting.

[hhe]

Chi Sau, Kiu Sau, focus mitt, Jong, roll with partner, footwork, forms etc. are drills. They are part of focus training for particular technical skills of fighting if you know what you are doing. They can be use for technical development; some can also be use for skill challenge. Obvious, alone they are not fighting.

[sihing]

No it's not.

Boxers train to be fighters.

Boxer's,like all functional martial artists, learn fundamental skills in the context of how they will use them (in fighting), practice using those skills as they will use them, and then use them as they have trained -- 1 to 1 to 1 (they're learning looks like their training which looks like their boxing). Classical WCK training, like any TMA, doesn't have that 1 to 1 to 1 correspondence.

Boxing coaches are people who have developed good, proficient skills (boxing in the ring) themselves. The overwhelming majority of WCK teachers have little in the way of genuine skills (being able to do what they train to do).

They emphasize conditioning and their conditioning drills are "sport specific".

They make sparring the core of their training, and recognize that you only learn to box and develop your boxing skills by boxing.

True, boxers do train to be fighters that fight other boxers, what happens when you put a wrestler in the ring with a boxer (without the boxer knowing you did this), whatta think would happen?

WC teaches fundamental skills for fighting, balance, structure, power development, mobility, focus, sensitivity, spatial awareness, etc, just in a different way than boxing. I don't use tan as a technique with the idea that I have to express it in a fight, lol, (like you seem to think I am, it is an idea or concept to spread something away. When there is nothing to spread I hit, not thinking about spreading or subduing or slapping, but hitting, only when something interferers with it do I use those things, and only as much of it as I need, due to built in reaction, not a preconceived motion learned from a form. I fight, with the idea to win, not express WC. Most of the time I will never have to use it, and if I did you wouldn't see me using it, as it is all a part of the motion. Just like a boxer has the built in ability to adjust his blows, and defend at the same time, it because they train it and it is seldom seen but always felt).

WC teachers, like me are proficient in WC, it is up to the student learning it to bring it out in a fight or self defence situation. Are you saying that the Boxing trainer physically transfers his skill to his pupil? It's the same process, just a different method, so no difference.

I emphasize application specific conditioning practices as well, bag work, power work, accuracy work, timing work, you think we are all just standing still all class trying to generate our chi? lol..

If sparring is the core of their training, why is there mitt work, bag work, road work, skipping, dbl ended bag, situps pushups physical conditioning. All of these things sharpen the tools a boxer has, and it is combined with non contact sparring because this is where the boxer uses it, they are non contact fighters. WC does the same, but we use contact as an ally, but we are not dependent on it, as hitting is the thing. It is actually easier since we only have one punch to train, the straight punch, they have hooks, crosses, jabs, upper cuts, but they need these things since they are competiting in a sport environment with other conditioned athlete's in a ring with rules, meant to bring forth entertaining bouts, with the idea to make money.



James

[sihing]

No, I don't think that. What you are doing is using a strawman -- mis-stating my position to refute it.



If TMAists were doing what functional martial artists were doing, they would be getting the same results. But they're not. They never have. The evidence of that is overwhelming. (Like when the WCK guys from HK went to fight the Thais).

What TMAists, including some in WCK do, are some things that have some similarity to what functional martial artists do and convince themselves that "we do that too." But they are not the same and they don't have the same priority/focus.

Much of what TMAists do is waste their time -- at least from the perspective of developing fighting skills. Forms, unrealistic drills like chi sao, are essentailly wastes of time when it comes to developing skills. So if you have a two-hour training session and you spend most ofthe time doing forms, chi sao, san sao, etc. all that time is spent not developing skills. Throw in theory, it you go further off-track.



That's not the same at all. Chi sao and mook jong isn't application -- it isn't what you will do in a fight as you will do it. All you have to do is spar with some nonWCK guy that presses you and you'll see that nothing resembling those things you practice come out as your practice doing them.





Chisao, gor sao is nothing -- NOTHING -- like fighting. It is just a UNREALISTIC EXERCISE to teach you a very limited set of contact skills. Anyone who spars will see that. They will see that they can't do in fighting what they do in chi sao, because all kinds of variables that we exclude from chi sao are present in fighting.

Getting the same results where? Is there any competition events even able to handle the amount of people involved in Martial Arts if they all wanted to compete (what 10 million or so participants). Hey, it is not my fault that MA events have musical forms, I laugh too I have a student that trains in Karate as well (his son is there so he still trains there because of that). He's told me many times how his WC training has helped him in sparring with his Karate BB, and he's only a orange belt. Does this result prove my point? I dunno, nor do I care

When that happened to Sifu Lam that is correct, then he went to Thailand, learned their method and came back with and fought with them to a better result. He's done what your saying, and he say's Thai is the king of the ring, WC is the king of the street, but I guess that doesn't count because you know better
The key thing here is competitons are not the street. Apples and Oranges here.

Your right about the priority and focus, but I'm not interested in fighting other fighters in a ring or octagon with rules and ref's. I only train in something I enjoy and teach it for the same reason, with less intensity because we are using for a different purpose, more for enjoyment of training and some self defence abilities if and when it is needed. You need to relax a bit and learn to enjoy life more, as life is not about fighting and being ready for the fight that may never happen. Plus I a knife is no use against a gun

Forms and chi sau are part of the training program that develops "Wing Chun" skills, it is up to the participant to be able to fight with it. If there purpose is to fight in a competition environment, then WC is not for you, that is not it's purpose or goal, go to MMA/boxing gym for that

I never said Chi sau and mok jong is application, it is the training to develop the WC skills, to which if someone wants to they can then move on to the non contact sparring aspect, which is also important if you want to be a good fighter. You must be able to deal with distance, timing and perspection issues when in a combat situation, especially if you fight competitively. Techniques don't win fights, people do and it is if they use their training successfully or not, is the key.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

For me, on a personal level it would be cool to meet up with you sanjuro, as it sounds like you have a ton of exeperience in allot of methods as well as WC. I could learn a ton from you and experience something different, so that is always a cool thing to have happen. If I make it down your way I will definetly let you know, to bad this wasn't a year and half ago, I was down there 2 or 3 times already, lol.

James

Anytime, I am always up for getting my ass handed to me and if you can learn a thing from me, I would be honoured to share.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When that happened to Sifu Lam that is correct, then he went to Thailand, learned their method and came back with and fought with them to a better result. He's done what your saying, and he say's Thai is the king of the ring, WC is the king of the street, but I guess that doesn't count because you know better
The key thing here is competitons are not the street. Apples and Oranges here.

I don't agree with this, but that is a different thread.

If sparring is the core of their training, why is there mitt work, bag work, road work, skipping, dbl ended bag, situps pushups physical conditioning. All of these things sharpen the tools a boxer has, and it is combined with non contact sparring because this is where the boxer uses it, they are non contact fighters. WC does the same, but we use contact as an ally, but we are not dependent on it, as hitting is the thing. It is actually easier since we only have one punch to train, the straight punch, they have hooks, crosses, jabs, upper cuts, but they need these things since they are competiting in a sport environment with other conditioned athlete's in a ring with rules, meant to bring forth entertaining bouts, with the idea to make money.

There are pro boxers and amat. boxers and semi-pro and just pain fighters that box.
Pro boxing, like pro MT tends to be done on a whole to put on a show and for that
Fights tend to last longer, though some fighters will take the quick KO, most fans like a long fight, a few rounds at least.
BUT never think for a moment that a trained fighter can't and/or won't take someone out quicker than the panties of a prom queen fly off on prom night.
They will.
Sparring is the core of any fighting system, ALL TYPES of sparring, hard being typical and full contact being mixed up in there as well on a pretty regular basis.
pad work and bag work can actually make up more training time, but the core is still sparring, even more so in the beginning.

[sihing]

I don't agree with this, but that is a different thread.



There are pro boxers and amat. boxers and semi-pro and just pain fighters that box.
Pro boxing, like pro MT tends to be done on a whole to put on a show and for that
Fights tend to last longer, though some fighters will take the quick KO, most fans like a long fight, a few rounds at least.
BUT never think for a moment that a trained fighter can't and/or won't take someone out quicker than the panties of a prom queen fly off on prom night.
They will.
Sparring is the core of any fighting system, ALL TYPES of sparring, hard being typical and full contact being mixed up in there as well on a pretty regular basis.
pad work and bag work can actually make up more training time, but the core is still sparring, even more so in the beginning.

Then I guess it comes down to how you define core. When someone says that to me, I interpret it to mean they are doing that activity the most. If you mean that everything else (pad/mitt work, heavy bag, road work, etc...) leads up to sparring, then I agree. The idea is to not get good at hitting the bag or the mitts, but putting it all together in the ring when you need it. It all works the same in WC, at least the way I am learning it, we develop the tools, then use them. I for one do not believe in WC vs WC when it comes to sparring, as this will get you know where fast. One guy will plays the role of streetfighter/boxer/wrestler/kickboxer/etc.., the other will use their WC skills, and then go from there. By the way, when it comes to training like this, I also don't believe in limiting myself to just a WC structure, I might as well use whatever tools I have and then incorporate the training in when I need it. If your open, and I can hit you with a jab, then why not. In practice I keep it strict, because I am learning something specific. When using it, anything goes.

Regarding Sifu Lam's comment, in all essence I believe that in the end it is up to the person using it that makes the biggest difference. MT guys train hard, have a good work ethic, and are tough as nails and love to fight. Anyone that goes thru there training regemend will become proficient in defending themselves, so really it is not about the method that we are talking about, more about the training and conditioning. The best fighters have a good method and top notch conditioning, guaranteed. But sometimes we are not talking about strictly that, Fighting, per say. The average guy with 40hr a week job, and other responsibilities/activities in life, may not be able to train that way, or want to for that matter. On this forum here, all we can really do is talk about the method, not individual training practices or generalizations used by some that may be the minority, rather than the majority.

James

[sihing]

Anytime, I am always up for getting my ass handed to me and if you can learn a thing from me, I would be honoured to share.

The ass handed to me part will be the other way around dude. You teach me some ground stuff, I'll teach you the invincible pak sau. Deal

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Then I guess it comes down to how you define core. When someone says that to me, I interpret it to mean they are doing that activity the most. If you mean that everything else (pad/mitt work, heavy bag, road work, etc...) leads up to sparring, then I agree. The idea is to not get good at hitting the bag or the mitts, but putting it all together in the ring when you need it. It all works the same in WC, at least the way I am learning it, we develop the tools, then use them. I for one do not believe in WC vs WC when it comes to sparring, as this will get you know where fast. One guy will plays the role of streetfighter/boxer/wrestler/kickboxer/etc.., the other will use their WC skills, and then go from there. By the way, when it comes to training like this, I also don't believe in limiting myself to just a WC structure, I might as well use whatever tools I have and then incorporate the training in when I need it. If your open, and I can hit you with a jab, then why not. In practice I keep it strict, because I am learning something specific. When using it, anything goes.

In a nutshell, equipment like the HB, mitts and pads are used to develop striking attributes - speed, force, follow-through, endurance ( both muscular and cardiovascular).
On learns to fight by fighting, starting with light contact sparring ( for a very limited time), to hard contact ( got get the honest reactions) to full contact, then one moves on the actual "fighting" ie: competition.
The core of a fighter fighting ability is his ability to fight ie: the core is sparring.
The core of a fighters technical skill level is his equipment training.

Regarding Sifu Lam's comment, in all essence I believe that in the end it is up to the person using it that makes the biggest difference. MT guys train hard, have a good work ethic, and are tough as nails and love to fight. Anyone that goes thru there training regemend will become proficient in defending themselves, so really it is not about the method that we are talking about, more about the training and conditioning. The best fighters have a good method and top notch conditioning, guaranteed. But sometimes we are not talking about strictly that, Fighting, per say. The average guy with 40hr a week job, and other responsibilities/activities in life, may not be able to train that way, or want to for that matter. On this forum here, all we can really do is talk about the method, not individual training practices or generalizations used by some that may be the minority, rather than the majority.

I don't train now like I used to train when I was either competing or when is was even more obsessed with MA, ex:
There was a tiem that I took a year off school and work and all I did was train, 7 days a week, twice a day, I got my nidan in kyokushin and my shodan in judo at that time.
Can I do that now?
Nope, but the fact that I did, carries over to what I do know, the body remembers and it keeps what you have done, as long as you maintain it.
I don't train like a pro fighter because I am not one, nor do I care to be one.
What is the difference in what I do now?
I train less and spar less, but the rest is exactly the same, so what is the diference?
Conditioning, and that is a huge thing my friend, trust me on that.

In many ways we come back full circle to the theme of this thread, whicl some TCMA schools (like WC) tend to focus on "irrelevant" stuff liek what is a Pak Sao and how is it suppose to be done, other schools focus on training their students/trainees to be the best that can be, bets fighters they can be.

there is no translation issues because the language is universal - effectievness and testing of effectiveness.

EX: while some coaches prefer the thumb up hook and other prefer the palm down hook, NO COACH will stop you from doing which ever one feels more natural and works best for you.

[t_niehoff]

True, boxers do train to be fighters that fight other boxers, what happens when you put a wrestler in the ring with a boxer (without the boxer knowing you did this), whatta think would happen?

That's not what we were talking about.

Fighting involves stand-up, clinch, and ground. You went from comparing how people train -- theri trianing method -- to what they train to do. Boxers train certain skills, wrestlers train another group of skills.

WC teaches fundamental skills for fighting, balance, structure, power development, mobility, focus, sensitivity, spatial awareness, etc, just in a different way than boxing.

WCK, like boxing and wrestling, is an approach to fighting, and that approach has certain skills, tools, etc. What a WCK fighter does is different that what a boxer does because it is a different approach to fighting. You could also say that wrestling teaches "fundamental skills for fighting, balance, structure, power development, mobility, focus, sensitivity, spatial awareness, etc, just in a different way than boxing." Andf you'd be right -- since wrestling is a different approach than boxing.

What I am talking about is the training model. And boxers and wrestlers use the same model, adapted to their specific approach. TMAs don't use that model. They use a different one, one that has provedto be ineffective.

I don't use tan as a technique with the idea that I have to express it in a fight, lol, (like you seem to think I am, it is an idea or concept to spread something away. When there is nothing to spread I hit, not thinking about spreading or subduing or slapping, but hitting, only when something interferers with it do I use those things, and only as much of it as I need, due to built in reaction, not a preconceived motion learned from a form.

You ahve "built in reaction" from unrealistic drills, like chi sao. Those "reactions" aren't realistic -- they won't work like that in fighting -- since they were not trained realistically, in the same context that they will really be used. You ahve developed chi sao reactions, not fighitng skills.

All you need to do is tape yourself doing chi sao/gor sao. Then, get a nonWCK partner, begin in contact
(as you are in chi sao) and really fight -- you'll see that all your chi sao reactions are worthless.

I fight, with the idea to win, not express WC. Most of the time I will never have to use it, and if I did you wouldn't see me using it, as it is all a part of the motion. Just like a boxer has the built in ability to adjust his blows, and defend at the same time, it because they train it and it is seldom seen but always felt).

You are not "using it most of the time" because you're not fighting in contact, and tan sao is a contact move -- and like many WCK people, you don't see WCK as a contact fighting method. So you do kickboxing with WCK. If you do that, most of WCK's tools can't be used (because they arecontact tools).

WC teachers, like me are proficient in WC, it is up to the student learning it to bring it out in a fight or self defence situation. Are you saying that the Boxing trainer physically transfers his skill to his pupil? It's the same process, just a different method, so no difference.

Classical WCK people don't train or learn as boxers do. The process is entirely different. There is not that 1 to 1 to 1 correspondence (learning to training to doing), sparring isn't the core of the training, condititioning isn't empahsized, etc. WCK people practice forms (that are worhtless as training), unrealsitic drills (which won't and can't develop fighting skills or attributes, including sensitivity), try to follow silly theories of fighting expoused by nonfighters, etc.

What you mean by "proficient" is that you "know" the forms, know the drills, can talk theory (how you beleive it will work), and can spar reasonably well with other WCK people. And that's what shotokan karate people call "proficient" too. And so do tai ji people. And aikido people.

But, you will fail the test for proficiency: whether you can do in fighting/saprring those things you train to do as you train to do them. You'll see that you can't really pull off most of them -- and you'll end up doing what most WCK people do, either caveman WCK (charging in with straightblast and front kicks) or kickboxing. And, if you spar/fight against decent functionally-trained fighters, you will get wiped.

I emphasize application specific conditioning practices as well, bag work, power work, accuracy work, timing work, you think we are all just standing still all class trying to generate our chi? lol..

You can only get timing from sparring -- there is no other "timing work". I think what you are doing is essentially the blind leading the blind.

How about this? -- take some time off and go spend it with a good, proven fight trainer. See how fighters really train. Actually learn from genuine proven experts in the field. Do the training yourself. Then take what they do, how they train, and try to apply that to your WCK.

If sparring is the core of their training, why is there mitt work, bag work, road work, skipping, dbl ended bag, situps pushups physical conditioning.

That'a all conditioning, sport specific conditioning. As I said, they emphasize conditioning. Because when sparring is the core of your training, and you recognize that your skill *only* comesfrom sparring, you will wanttodo as much of it as possible, right? And to do that, you need to be in very good condition.

All of these things sharpen the tools a boxer has, and it is combined with non contact sparring because this is where the boxer uses it, they are non contact fighters.

"Sharpening the tools" is a poor analogy becauase it suppests that the sharpening and the use of the tools are two different things. They're not. You only sharpen combative tools by using them, by sparring or by realsitic drills (which aresnippets or snapshots of sparring).

WC does the same, but we use contact as an ally, but we are not dependent on it, as hitting is the thing. It is actually easier since we only have one punch to train, the straight punch, they have hooks, crosses, jabs, upper cuts, but they need these things since they are competiting in a sport environment with other conditioned athlete's in a ring with rules, meant to bring forth entertaining bouts, with the idea to make money.

For me, WCK's approach is to control while hitting. And the control is at least as important as the hitting. I don't see WCK has only having one punch.

Boxing has different tools not because it is a sport (it had those before it was a sport) but because it is a different approach to fighting and that approach is for stand-up, free-movement, not contact fighitng.

[t_niehoff]

On learns to fight by fighting, starting with light contact sparring ( for a very limited time), to hard contact ( got get the honest reactions) to full contact, then one moves on the actual "fighting" ie: competition.

That's not exactly the "progression". What's important is that the learning, the training, and the doing correspond 1to 1 to 1. That you make sparring the core of your training, and that you mix light, heavy, etc. And realize that competition is not the object of the training; the object is to develop the skills.

The core of a fighter fighting ability is his ability to fight ie: the core is sparring.
The core of a fighters technical skill level is his equipment training.

Equipment training can never develop technical skill. That is all conditioning. Skill -- which is your ability to successfully do in fighting the things you train to do -- comes from sparring or from realistic drills(which are snippets of sparring).

In many ways we come back full circle to the theme of this thread, whicl some TCMA schools (like WC) tend to focus on "irrelevant" stuff liek what is a Pak Sao and how is it suppose to be done, other schools focus on training their students/trainees to be the best that can be, bets fighters they can be.

there is no translation issues because the language is universal - effectievness and testing of effectiveness.

EX: while some coaches prefer the thumb up hook and other prefer the palm down hook, NO COACH will stop you from doing which ever one feels more natural and works best for you.

Yes, we have run the circle. Theory, whether how to fight, how to apply WCK, how to train, etc. is the issue. TMAs are theory-based. Whereas functional martial arts are result-based. You can even see this in the marketing of the TMAs and the functional martial arts.

[sihing]

That's not what we were talking about.

Fighting involves stand-up, clinch, and ground. You went from comparing how people train -- theri trianing method -- to what they train to do. Boxers train certain skills, wrestlers train another group of skills.



WCK, like boxing and wrestling, is an approach to fighting, and that approach has certain skills, tools, etc. What a WCK fighter does is different that what a boxer does because it is a different approach to fighting. You could also say that wrestling teaches "fundamental skills for fighting, balance, structure, power development, mobility, focus, sensitivity, spatial awareness, etc, just in a different way than boxing." Andf you'd be right -- since wrestling is a different approach than boxing.

What I am talking about is the training model. And boxers and wrestlers use the same model, adapted to their specific approach. TMAs don't use that model. They use a different one, one that has provedto be ineffective.



You ahve "built in reaction" from unrealistic drills, like chi sao. Those "reactions" aren't realistic -- they won't work like that in fighting -- since they were not trained realistically, in the same context that they will really be used. You ahve developed chi sao reactions, not fighitng skills.

All you need to do is tape yourself doing chi sao/gor sao. Then, get a nonWCK partner, begin in contact
(as you are in chi sao) and really fight -- you'll see that all your chi sao reactions are worthless.



You are not "using it most of the time" because you're not fighting in contact, and tan sao is a contact move -- and like many WCK people, you don't see WCK as a contact fighting method. So you do kickboxing with WCK. If you do that, most of WCK's tools can't be used (because they arecontact tools).



Classical WCK people don't train or learn as boxers do. The process is entirely different. There is not that 1 to 1 to 1 correspondence (learning to training to doing), sparring isn't the core of the training, condititioning isn't empahsized, etc. WCK people practice forms (that are worhtless as training), unrealsitic drills (which won't and can't develop fighting skills or attributes, including sensitivity), try to follow silly theories of fighting expoused by nonfighters, etc.

What you mean by "proficient" is that you "know" the forms, know the drills, can talk theory (how you beleive it will work), and can spar reasonably well with other WCK people. And that's what shotokan karate people call "proficient" too. And so do tai ji people. And aikido people.

But, you will fail the test for proficiency: whether you can do in fighting/saprring those things you train to do as you train to do them. You'll see that you can't really pull off most of them -- and you'll end up doing what most WCK people do, either caveman WCK (charging in with straightblast and front kicks) or kickboxing. And, if you spar/fight against decent functionally-trained fighters, you will get wiped.



You can only get timing from sparring -- there is no other "timing work". I think what you are doing is essentially the blind leading the blind.

How about this? -- take some time off and go spend it with a good, proven fight trainer. See how fighters really train. Actually learn from genuine proven experts in the field. Do the training yourself. Then take what they do, how they train, and try to apply that to your WCK.



That'a all conditioning, sport specific conditioning. As I said, they emphasize conditioning. Because when sparring is the core of your training, and you recognize that your skill *only* comesfrom sparring, you will wanttodo as much of it as possible, right? And to do that, you need to be in very good condition.



"Sharpening the tools" is a poor analogy becauase it suppests that the sharpening and the use of the tools are two different things. They're not. You only sharpen combative tools by using them, by sparring or by realsitic drills (which aresnippets or snapshots of sparring).



For me, WCK's approach is to control while hitting. And the control is at least as important as the hitting. I don't see WCK has only having one punch.

Boxing has different tools not because it is a sport (it had those before it was a sport) but because it is a different approach to fighting and that approach is for stand-up, free-movement, not contact fighitng.

Define Classical Wing Chun People?

You've said some good things, most of it makes sense. You said Boxers train to fight, I said put a wrestler in the ring and don't tell the boxer, you said the wasn't fair. Did I break a rule there? I didn't realize fighting has rules. Get me my point? You chastize me about unrealistic training, training that won't stand up to real fighters, I throw a wrench in your stated idea and you come back and yell not fair game. If someone throws out a idea, even a guy like sanjuro, you dismiss it as not the real way, something is wrong, but the guy has done it (according to him), so how do you dispute it?

If hitting the various bags and such is not sharpening the tools why are they there, strictly for conditioning? The speed bag is a conditioning tools, dbl ended bag a conditioning tool? Not from what I understand. The ultimate goal behind everything a boxer does in the gym is the application of it in the ring, so yes I agree on that part, but they always go back to relatively the same routine to bring the tools up to par, while conditioning and getting them ready for the sparring that will happen and the fight at the end of the road.

I remember the last TUF, and earlier on in the series the guy that won it stated he wasn't liking his time necessarily there at the place, as he hasn't sparred in 5 weeks. Why would top notch, world class trainers (most of them fighters as well), not have them spar for that long when sparring is the thing (according to you), that you must do, most of the time? And these guys are training to be pro's, never mind the ameatuer gyms out there that teach people not even interested in fighting in comps? Interesting how these guys differ from your view of it, and they do it for a living. It is not that I don't think sparring has value or anything like that. From what I understand of the process you hard spar only 10% of the time, lighter sparring and things like that the rest of the time. The problem is if you hard spar all the time you burnout, and injuries arise.


James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Equipment training can never develop technical skill. That is all conditioning. Skill -- which is your ability to successfully do in fighting the things you train to do -- comes from sparring or from realistic drills(which are snippets of sparring).

Yes, technical was the wrong word to use.
Though you develop the stributes for better technique with equiment work and by better I mean, faster, stronger, more conditioned.

That's not exactly the "progression". What's important is that the learning, the training, and the doing correspond 1to 1 to 1. That you make sparring the core of your training, and that you mix light, heavy, etc. And realize that competition is not the object of the training; the object is to develop the skills.

Pretty much the progression in the 5 boxing gyms I have trained at, to one extent or they other.

[sihing]

In a nutshell, equipment like the HB, mitts and pads are used to develop striking attributes - speed, force, follow-through, endurance ( both muscular and cardiovascular).
On learns to fight by fighting, starting with light contact sparring ( for a very limited time), to hard contact ( got get the honest reactions) to full contact, then one moves on the actual "fighting" ie: competition.
The core of a fighter fighting ability is his ability to fight ie: the core is sparring.
The core of a fighters technical skill level is his equipment training.




I don't train now like I used to train when I was either competing or when is was even more obsessed with MA, ex:
There was a tiem that I took a year off school and work and all I did was train, 7 days a week, twice a day, I got my nidan in kyokushin and my shodan in judo at that time.
Can I do that now?
Nope, but the fact that I did, carries over to what I do know, the body remembers and it keeps what you have done, as long as you maintain it.
I don't train like a pro fighter because I am not one, nor do I care to be one.
What is the difference in what I do now?
I train less and spar less, but the rest is exactly the same, so what is the diference?
Conditioning, and that is a huge thing my friend, trust me on that.

In many ways we come back full circle to the theme of this thread, whicl some TCMA schools (like WC) tend to focus on "irrelevant" stuff liek what is a Pak Sao and how is it suppose to be done, other schools focus on training their students/trainees to be the best that can be, bets fighters they can be.

there is no translation issues because the language is universal - effectievness and testing of effectiveness.

EX: while some coaches prefer the thumb up hook and other prefer the palm down hook, NO COACH will stop you from doing which ever one feels more natural and works best for you.

Agreed, in the end, you have to have the timing, the ability to deal with somone coming at you full force, and unpredicably, and get used to getting hit in those situatiuons and still be able to complete your task, that comes from fighting per say or sparring as we like to call it (even though sparring in most cases is still not realistic in alot of ways, it becomes a game for some). The drills and forms in WC for example develop the base skills, you as the practitioner have to bring it out and use them in a non rehearsed way with ever increasing intensity to develop the ability to use it. The more skills you want the more intensity (conditioning as well) you will need. Once again, it comes down the individuals needs and wants.

Good post

James

P.S. You realize in T's view, as soon as you started to ease off on the training you instantly started to lose effectiveness as a fighter (not a competition fighter, as you will always need conditioning for that environment). What you did, and the result you found (that it is easier to maintain a skill than to obtain it), is something I have been stating here for a long time, only to be told it doesn't work that way. I've seen it within myself and others, and now you have said the same, but the naysayers will not see it that way, because it goes against their "Theory" of how it all works. I agree that conditioning is important, for sure, as I have my self started one such program, and it is fun but dam hard. What I've been saying is related to the skills of the thing we are doing, skills are important too, otherwise the triathlete, olymipic sprinting champs would all be good fighters automatically, and that is not the case.