Why UFC fighters don't use WCK

[LoneTiger108]

Its funny that people mention that WC is a system the needs "time" because I recall reading how it was created to be a "shorter learning curve" than the typical kung fu systems of the time.

Very true Sanjuro. How good is your Chinese?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very true Sanjuro. How good is your Chinese?

Non-existent, but I can imitate pretty well a ****ed off cantonese female brothel owner !
Don't ask...

[sihing]

Its funny that people mention that WC is a system the needs "time" because I recall reading how it was created to be a "shorter learning curve" than the typical kung fu systems of the time.

I think compared to other KF systems it is, from what I understand the standard time to learn most systems of KF is or was 10-15yrs, with WC you could cut that down to 4 or 5 to learn the complete system. At least in the old country. I've heard the same about Japanese MA, in Japan, but I can't confirm that.

IMO it all depends on how it is taught, how much time the individual wants to put into his training, and how intense/hard he wants to train. For example, when I was in LA training at Sifu Lam's people would come in to test him out and he would first set him up with one on his level 1 students, usually the level 1 guys would do the job, only to behold that his time in was 3 months. 3 months down there is like a year anywhere else, just due to the fact that you are training 4 to 5 hrs a day, and have the man right there to answer all your questions and people are motivated because they want to learn all they can to take it home with them.

IMO, I believe that WC is not the easiest MA learn, simply due to it's reprogramming of the body in most people, but I have had fast learning students that pick up on it like they were born to do it.

Time in is all relative and really doesn't mean much, only personal experience with each individual does.

James

[nschmelzer]

No, what they want are effective methods... and these days it is hard to pull the wool over people's faces by showing them some B.S. demos, having them do forms and chi sao and telling them if they just keep doing those things over and over, somehwhere down the road they will become good like some grandmaster who was never really that good in the first place.

I have never heard a WC master or instructor tell people that doing forms and chi sao will make them "good." Apparently you have heard it (although I doubt you have actually heard it). It is more likely that this is merely your perception of what the WC master is telling people - probably because you are not listening. Many people on this forum sound like people that hate religion so much that they only "hear" things/facts that validate their world view and hatred of religion. Many people on this forum have made up their minds on WCK - and only hear things that validate that opinion. Or worse, they distort the facts to fit their opinion. For example, a WCK master may say: "Doing forms and chi sao are valuable training activities." However, these people hear: "If you do forms and chi sao, you will be good at WCK." Then they go on forums and say: "WCK masters are telling people that they can kick a$$ if they do forms and chi sao." In other words, many WCK critics on this forum distort reality (what the WCK master may have actually said) because they were not really listening and/or their perception was affected by their bias (like a man-hating woman, or rabid atheist). Even worse, these people then go around maligning WCK masters & lineages by spouting off their distorted perception as fact. This is probably why WCK is not suitable for children.

[Sihing73]

Saturday.



How many fights have you been in in your life? How many were agaisnt one person and how many were you against a group of guys with weapons?

Hi Dale,

As per your pattern: please post a video so all can see

I try to avoid fights as much as possible but I have been in quite a number. In my youth I was not as wise as I am now. I have been shot three times, twice while wearing a vest so maybe they don't count. I have been stabbed several times and have ths scars to prove it. Some of this was job related while working as a Police Officer or in a Correctional Facility. Probably the worst beating I ever took was at the hand of several people using bicycle chains, that hurt. I have also been hit in the head with a 40 bottle in a bar. Now I am not saying that I won all of my "fights" but I am still here so that should say something.

Dale, I am not in any way trying to show that I am tough, I am not, I am a WIMP I try to run away if the opportunity presents itself. When I teach I tell my students that I CHEAT and I do. Now I may not be a MMA fighter nor in the best shape, but I have fought for real against people trying to hurt me badly or take my life. So while I may, in some eyes be a fantasy theoritical fighter, I feel that I may have some small inkling of what it takes to survive on the street and I try to pass that on to the AVERAGE person who has neither the time nor inclination to become the next MMA Champion.

Please do not presume to tell me that my WC will not work on the street. I am 43 years old and while I am not the same person I was when I began my training I have been in situations where it allowed me to survive and still be here. However, a lot of survival on the street depends on ones mental attitude and the willingness to keep going no matter what.

So now Dale, how many Real Fights have yoiu been in, how many scars do you have, not from training, but from application?

[jesper]

Liddel, I've often thought the same thing about the people attracted to WC. I consider myself a martial artist who happens to do WC. Which means I don't discount the other arts out there. A warrior should be familiar with varied weapons. We had to be familiar with AK 47s and AK 50s in Vietnam just in case you needed to fire one to save yourself. I wouldn't discount the Communist AK just because it wasn't a NATO weapon.

Maybe because it was a better weapon for jungle fighting then most nato rifles of that time

[Chango]

[QUOTE][Maybe because it was a better weapon for jungle fighting then most nato rifles of that time /QUOTE]

Plus because of the loose design it would fire a nato round and the AK round could not be used in the nato firearm! They say even a rusted beat up AK will fire if you can get a round chambered!

[Knifefighter]

Please do not presume to tell me that my WC will not work on the street.

Please do not presume to tell me that "rolling on the ground" will not work on the street.

As someone who formerly worked in law enforcement, I'm pretty surprised you don't see the value of ground work.

So now Dale, how many Real Fights have yoiu been in, how many scars do you have, not from training, but from application?

Too many to count and a few scars.

[Knifefighter]

I'm just soooooooo glad I didn't learn my Wing Chun from the charlatan you've obviously met...

Then why would it be unfortunate for you that people want to use their WC to fight in a cage? If you did not learn from a charlaton and are not one yourself, what you are teaching should also be viable for their cage fighting.

[Sihing73]

Please do not presume to tell me that "rolling on the ground" will not work on the street.

Too many to count and a few scars.

Hi Dale,

If you honeslty want to roll on the ground in a real street combat situation then please feel free to do so. If you do that and there is more than one person then I doubt we will have the privilege of your posts. If your lucky we can send flowers to the hospital and wish you a speedy recovery. If your not lucky, what would you like on your headstone .

I tell you what, you live in LA, right? Take a walk down to one of your local gangbangers areas and see if you get attacked, then, if you survive, tell us how many attackers there were and whether or not you opted to shoot and take them to the ground. Then let us know what happened to you, again if you live, while you were on the ground with that one guy. I am sure his friends would all stand around in awe of your awesome BJJ skills and just part and let you walk away afterwards Go do this and then come back here and tell everyone how our approach is Fantasy based.

Hopefully, you would not be stupid enough to try this, but I think you may get the point. A real combat situation is nothing to look for, as it will most likely involve more than one, possibly armed attacker and you have already admitted that you would not want to go to the ground in such an instance. So, why do you keep trying to act like BJJ is the ultimate method of street combat???

[Knifefighter]

So, why do you keep trying to act like BJJ is the ultimate method of street combat???

LOL... anyone who truly has street (and law enforcement) experience knows that sometimes things are done on the ground and sometimes they are done standing. Whether you get the job done standing or on the ground is situationally dependent on things that are sometimes under your control and sometimes not.

[Sihing73]

LOL... anyone who truly has street (and law enforcement) experience knows that sometimes things are done on the ground and sometimes they are done standing. Whether you get the job done standing or on the ground is situationally dependent on things that are sometimes under your control and sometimes not.

Hello Dale,

LOL, you are as always correct in your assumptions, I have no real life experience and got all my training via video games. In this maybe we are much alike

Granted that there are times when the s*** hits the fan and everything goes bad. In such a situation you may indeed end up on the ground rolling around with your opponent. I am not saying that does not happen. But, I would strive to get to my feet as quickly as possible.

What I am saying is that anyone who advocates going to the ground as their fighting method of choice in a Real Life Combat situation has no idea of the reality of combat and has not been in very many REAL Fights. Again most street combat situaitons involve multiple attackers and weapons. Shoot, even schoolyards have multiple armed attackers these days.

I like the way one of my training partners described things:

A bar fight is not one on one, it is several on one. And the multiple attackers are not in combat, they are in a** kicking mode. It is the one guy fighting everyone else who is in combat, not self defense combat. Now I guess you would say this one guy needs to roll on the ground with one guy while everyone else watches. Hey maybe in Dale "Knifefighters" real world combat situations the opponents take turns, maybe they tap like on WWF and come at you one at a time

So Dale, how many bar fights have you been in which involved only one opponent and which you took them to the ground and made them submit??

[anerlich]

Please tell me the last time you saw a MMA fighter training to defend against a knife or club attack?????

Both the BJJ black belts where I train, both of whom have fought MMA professionally, also hold black belts in and regularly teach Arnis. Except maybe for Raymond Floro and David Crook, they are about the last two guys in Australia I'd want to try an impact or edged weapon assault on.

AS for WC being "too complex for these MMA meatheads to pick up", BJJ is MUCH more complex than WC. And as another poster suggested, it takes a LONG time and serious commitment to reach full instructor level. BJJ is NOT a shortcut.

I consider myself a martial artist who happens to do WC. Which means I don't discount the other arts out there.

Very sensible attitude IMO.

[t_niehoff]

Hello Dale,

LOL, you are as always correct in your assumptions, I have no real life experience and got all my training via video games. In this maybe we are much alike

Granted that there are times when the s*** hits the fan and everything goes bad. In such a situation you may indeed end up on the ground rolling around with your opponent. I am not saying that does not happen. But, I would strive to get to my feet as quickly as possible.

That sounds great -- but your ability to do that will depend on your training. In other words, how good your ground game is. Regardless of what you want to do or don't want to do, your ability to do it will rest on your skill level (and overall attributes).

One drill we do here is to start from a bottom position or guard and try to get up while the other guy just tries to keep you on the ground -- and does everything they can to keep you there. It's not easy (it takes some good skills and lots of conditioniing!). Especially against someone who has some ground skills and knows what is going on.

What I am saying is that anyone who advocates going to the ground as their fighting method of choice in a Real Life Combat situation has no idea of the reality of combat and has not been in very many REAL Fights. Again most street combat situaitons involve multiple attackers and weapons. Shoot, even schoolyards have multiple armed attackers these days.

This is fantasy.

I don't want to get into a streetfight at all. But if it happens, my best chance at being able to deal with that situation is to have competant, realistic fighting skills in stand-up, clinch, and ground.

I must ask WTF is "street combat"? The reality is if you are atacked on the street and your assailant has a weapon, you're f#cked. If your assailant has firends, your f#cked. I'm not saying that you can't get lucky -- or that you may not manage to escape, but the situation is dire. You're not going to beat competant multiple opponents or someone competant with a weapon if you are unarmed.

I like the way one of my training partners described things:

A bar fight is not one on one, it is several on one. And the multiple attackers are not in combat, they are in a** kicking mode. It is the one guy fighting everyone else who is in combat, not self defense combat. Now I guess you would say this one guy needs to roll on the ground with one guy while everyone else watches. Hey maybe in Dale "Knifefighters" real world combat situations the opponents take turns, maybe they tap like on WWF and come at you one at a time

So Dale, how many bar fights have you been in which involved only one opponent and which you took them to the ground and made them submit??

Two things.

First, the skills are constant. How we use them (our tactical choices) will depend on the situation.

Second, your not going to beat multiple attackers (empty handed, and it's really unliely even with a weapon) unless they are complete and utter scrubs. This is more fantasy stuff.

[Askari Hodari]

When you look that the UFC you see a microcosm of what happens in real fighting. In a street fight styles do not prevail, fighters do. The same is true in the UFC to some extent. The grappler may catch a knee when going for a takedown. The striker may get taken down and submitted. The well rounded fighter may simply run out of steam. The UFC shows the dynamic nature of fighting.

You can't go into a combat sport setting and say "I shall prevail by only using WC to vanquish my foes". While this may work some of the time. It might not work all of the time. UFC fighters train for simplicity and proficiency. Simplicity in that you won't see a wide range of esoteric techniques in most mma matches. You'll see jabs, crosses, hooks, round house kicks, take downs of varying types, and varying types of submissions, etc. You won't see a lot of rigid or even standardized approaches. You will instead see a proficient application of fluidity, whereas the adept fighter flows from boxing, to MT, to grappling seamlessly.

So if a fighter were to incorporate WC, then it would probably be a part of a wider array of approaches. If had ambitions to fight competitively I'd use some WC, but I'd also use techniques from other arts.

Again, styles may not prevail. Fighters invariably will.