Hong Quan anyone?

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is all going to go on to a topic that has been talked to death.

Looks at this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCj7sLKSzHI

and tell him that forms are no good.

In my opinion, based on learning KF since the 70s, the old way,
it is precisely because people do not truly understand and know how to use forms that they suck at their KF.

Enough said.

You can start yet another thread complaining about other schools and how they are no good and ruining KF.

My thread is about Hong Quan.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

In my opinion, based on learning KF since the 70s, the old way,
it is precisely because people do not truly understand and know how to use forms that they suck at their KF.

Reply]
We need more like you.

And you are right, I sort of side tracked the conversation. Sorry.

And I never said forms are no good...only excessive practice of them when old school guys like you would have actually been working applications, that is all. Forms are a great tool in thier own context. They just don't replace all the other stuff you are supposed to be doing.

Anyway, back to the topic...I'd like to hear more about the old manuals, especially if there are any that document ancient Hong Fist in Shandong.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This one is really nice too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3a6...elated&search=

[Bruce W Sims]

Sorry, Sal; you are right, of course. There is no reason to discuss something that gets talked to death on a regular basis. This thread is about HONG QUAN.

One small piece of research ought to be about how material was maintained, promoted, fostered and developed and my sense is that those forms or methods which did not keep pace with advances in the Society probably were dropped or relegated to the more artistic or conditioning side of a given art. Personally, I think the greatest blow came when Chinese Society found that many of their beliefs simply did not hold-up against the military technology of Western incursions. Can you imagine the trauma to the culture when practices such as "Golden Bell" could not protect folks from bullets as respected elders had indicated? Funny thing is, that this "cultural trauma" never gets talked about . Many times it seems as though Chinese Martial Traditions somehow developed and survived an a kind of "magic" place in time and space. There were a great number of events that took place in Chinese History but none of these had any effect, or only had positive effects on MA development.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I sense that somewhere in the background there has been some tinkering and I am thinking that it has been along the lines of nationalistic causes. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sorry, Sal; you are right, of course. There is no reason to discuss something that gets talked to death on a regular basis. This thread is about HONG QUAN.

One small piece of research ought to be about how material was maintained, promoted, fostered and developed and my sense is that those forms or methods which did not keep pace with advances in the Society probably were dropped or relegated to the more artistic or conditioning side of a given art. Personally, I think the greatest blow came when Chinese Society found that many of their beliefs simply did not hold-up against the military technology of Western incursions. Can you imagine the trauma to the culture when practices such as "Golden Bell" could not protect folks from bullets as respected elders had indicated? Funny thing is, that this "cultural trauma" never gets talked about . Many times it seems as though Chinese Martial Traditions somehow developed and survived an a kind of "magic" place in time and space. There were a great number of events that took place in Chinese History but none of these had any effect, or only had positive effects on MA development.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I sense that somewhere in the background there has been some tinkering and I am thinking that it has been along the lines of nationalistic causes. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Well, Chinese invented guns to deal with martial artists.
They've been shooting martial artists a long time before the Boxer Rebellion.

The big bodyguard companies lost a lot of clout once guns were easily obtainable and they had to train in their use after that.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This one is really nice too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3a6...elated&search=

This one is Xiao Hong Quan applications, cool!

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/68984...5091574-1.html

Use this one, it works better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-7E5xXs4c

[Sal Canzonieri]

Some hard to find Song Tai Zu Chang Quan sets:

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/1212250-1256977671.html

there are more there if you do a search.

[Royal Dragon]

The second link looks like the first section from the long form, from this VCD------------------> http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_taitzu.htm

[Sal Canzonieri]

The second link looks like the first section from the long form, from this VCD------------------> http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_taitzu.htm

Yeah, it's both sections actually, pretty much the same as in those vcds.
Not same person, slightly different movements, different flavor, but the same two sets.

[Royal Dragon]

So this set is around then. We need to find out what it is exactly. Is it some village Long Fist named after Tai Tzu and Shaolin? Or is it something that actually came out of Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chua directly?

[Sal Canzonieri]

So this set is around then. We need to find out what it is exactly. Is it some village Long Fist named after Tai Tzu and Shaolin? Or is it something that actually came out of Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chua directly?

Hmm, well, since it has the opening salute of Shandong Long Fist, and the second section is pretty much all mantis:
it is possible that these sets are from that Tai Tzu Mantis style that is indeed found in Shandong.
Kinda like the Shandong Xiao Hu Yan set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5rm9D1l1Uo

[Royal Dragon]

How can we verify that?

[Sal Canzonieri]

How can we verify that?

I posted a thread just now in N Mantis area asking for info on the TZ Mantis style, let's see if anyone can shed some more light.

There's a lot of Shandong material in these two sections, that is obvious.

But, the second Shaolin TZ Chang Quan set starts out with the same salute that all the Shandong long fist people do, so maybe that's where it originated from.

Need to see some TZ Mantis sets to compare with these two sections.

I should upload to youtube these two sections and ask the mantis people to look at it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNO2zOok9pM

[Royal Dragon]

Are you planning to put the Tai Tzu forms you posted on emptyflower on Youtube too?

[Bruce W Sims]

I thought I would submit this, just for fun.

The material from the KWON BUP chapter of the MYTBTJ is said to be that of General Qi's Boxing Canon. However, the Koreans did not keep the same order, nor did they use all of the Boxing methods from the JIN XIAO SHIN SHU. Further, in the middle of the chapter, the methods move from single execution to 2-person execution. This was never well-favored by the Koreans themselves, but has at least been well-regarded by historians lately as an appreciation for the General's injunctions about training needing to be more than mere "spirit form".

I came across this on YOU TUBE among a number of clips for SIPPALKI. Were someone to take the flavor of the KWON BUP material and update it into a comprehensive 2-person form it would probably look very much like this. I imagine that people better-schooled in Chinese traditions will be able to pick-out individual methods. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWaJUtXGDo

Best Wishes,

Bruce