Claims about MMA

[n00854180t]

Pretty much as I suspected then.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Pulling moves out of forms = TCMA
Doing solo work based on forms = TCMA

Doing moves on partners = MMA & TCMA
Doing solo work based on drills with partners, competitions and sparring = MMA & TCMA

This differentiation is one of the things that makes MMA so dominant.

Reply]
See my additions above.

TCMA has thier drills and partner work recorded in thier forms. MMA uses the Gracie CD Rom...the medium is not relevant In my opinion. Where the drills are recorded has nothing to do with the actual practice of them.

I really don't see MMA as being dominant at all....how often do you see an MMA guy winning in San Da? I have never seen it myself. I have seen San Da fighters win in MMA though.

MMA guys only seem to fight in thier own venues....and half of them lose even there. The truth is that the techniques MMA brags about so much actually FAIL 50% of the time.

Where is this mystical dominance you speak of?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Quote:
See, here is the issue. Many Kung Fu styles are basically Kick Boxing, with locks and throws.

If this was true then kung fu would look like judo + kick boxing

Reply]
Well, if you watch Sanda, you will see that for the most part, Kung Fu looks like Kick Boxing that leads into Shuia Jiao throws.

I don't know what you think it's supposed to look like, but if you think a Kung Fu fighter fights by executing his form form beginning to end, in sequence, then you are *VERY* uninformed. In a real fight you only use the few techniques that are applicable at the moment. All the rest of the techniques in the form are for other moments.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Must kung fu systems can claim at least 10 types of throws, at least, but you rarely if ever see them used. this is barring San Da of course as even in chin-na they treat it as a separate entity.

Reply]
Sanda is what real Kung Fu looks like in a fight. They use boxing style gloves though, so they can't Chin Na. I'd actually like to see Sanda evolve to MMA style gloves and allow the joint manipulations.

And the throws aren't *Rarely* used, in fact you see the throws contained in the forms ALL the time in San Da.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

MMA gloves allow for all throws and all joint locks.

Reply]
I think you can use them in Kuo Shou/Letai fighting. I'd like to see them in San Da as well.


Quote:
not to mention in may venues locks are severely limited (no small joint manipulations in UFC for example).
LOL @ small joint manipulations.

Who is going to be able to break someone's wrist, finger or toe... the grappler/MMA fighter who constantly practices against resisting opponents in a live manner developing the ability to control his opponent and isolate his limbs or the TCMA person who only goes through the motions of pretending to do small joint breaks?

Reply]
There is NO separation between MMA, and TCMA here. You need to remeber that *Traditional* Chinese martial arts were about fighting. If you truely teach traditionally, the TCMA will have the same experiance against resisting opponents as the MMA. It's only the modern CMA that are not training right. All this forms focus is really a new thing, in the last 2-3 generations or so...and even then, it's like that only in certian lineages. Other lines of said styles did not adopt that malarky.

And who is going to be more proficient at escaping these small joint manipulations, the grappler/MMA fighter who constantly practices escaping from holds in a live manner or the TCMA person who, if he practices escaping, does it with a compliant partner?

Reply]
The TCMA, who is TRULY Traditional will have the same experience against resisting opponents as the MMA does.

MMA is nothing new, it's really nothing more than a "Get back to basics" movement. The particular lines of Chinese martial arts that focus on memorizing form choreography is the modern, and watered down way of teaching...and not all branches of each style adopted that either.

The problem is that the ones that did grew at an exponential rate because by doing that you allowed the general public to openly participate in the study. So now we see them everywhere due to market saturation. Where as prior to that only those who were a special breed would do so. And lets face it, it DOES take a unique individual to get in there and fight hard regularly. Out of the millions of people in the population, those of us that peruse this path are quite rare.


The schools that stayed true to the traditional methods are today training San Da/ San Shou fighters. Only thier coaches know the forms, the students don't get them unless they will be teaching. And to be honest, with the ease of making video to document a system in the modern world, the forms might even die out in those lines and it will all go back to the way it was before forms...IE. collections of loose techniques around a solid fighting strategy.

Forms were ONLY to document the curriculum and keep it easily organized in the heads of the trainers, coaches and teachers. The only use the teachers had personally for them was to *Maintain* sport specific physical attributes like cardio, and to refine thier mechanics. They were traditionally the LAST thing taught, not part of a students practice..

[MysticNinjaJay]

What I was trying get at, not successfully, is that punching power and iron palm striking power = same

But they don't. Iron palm training is designed to increase the durability of the striker's fist (or other strike point) and the force of impact beyond what can be accomplished with traditional striking techniques. Otherwise there would be nothing phenomenal about the training.

A boxer for instance wears gloves to protect his fist from breaking upon impact with mere bones. An iron palm practioner breaks through hard objects that would break a boxer's hand. In the video a sledge hammer had less success penetrating the bricks than the TMA's elbow.

I hate to burst your bubble mystic....

Not at all, I welcome debate.

.....but that is far from actual scientific testing. It has a sensational bend to it.

Sensational or not it was a scientific inquiry. Now whether it is accurate or not is debatable.

First off, they are comparing the blows of a striker to that of an individual using an object to strike the dummy. Do these individuals know how to properly generate power similar to the ninja dude? Maybe they should of had someone with a baseball background swing the bat? What would that study have been like if the hammer fisting dude hit and then a boxer followed suit striking the dummy in the chest.

Actually those were other martial artists. The guy with the bat is, Bren Foster, a Tae Kwon Do master who is also trained in several weapons which were used later in the show. Perhaps a baseball player would find more success but Foster struck the dummy in the chest with a Spinning Back Kick which generated alot of force and a boxer who was on top of the demonstration for punches did the same earlier in the show.

I don't have all the clips on hand at the moment but I think the Ninja's Dim Mak technique generated more power than both of those moves.

Or better yet, field test the technique by having the ninja strike the dummy while suspended so that it swayed. It is easy to damage a person when they are at rest and do not move. That is the problem with a lot of the TCMA techniques. They only work under the most optimal conditions and perfectly set up settings. You hit a person with a hammer fist like that and they are one gone move, sway, twist or fold their body to absorb impact. That Fajing type energy can be produced by anyone. Teach it it a stronger person and the output damage is greater but try to apply it in an actual fight and the damage output usually gets negated.

The best way to field test Dim Mak would obviously be in a real life fight setting. Master Duan Bao Hua (the nipple striker as you called him) demonstrated Dim Mak on live students.

Mind Body & Kickass Moves - Dim Mak / Death Touch

I'm still skeptical of Dim Mak, especially the credibility of George Dillman and his disciples. Brainwashing and hypnotic suggestion is likely the secret behind Dillman's deadly art.

Now if they have several test parameters like having the dim mak guy hit with a certain blow, then a regular person copy that blow, then a boxer, and finally a strong man that knew how to hit. Once all of these people have been gauge, you could put the strikes into proper contexts.

Having several other guys hammer fist the dummy would indeed have been more scientific.

The things with the plum blossom type post could easily get the same result if you tested someone who does high wire training, a Pakour runner, high rise steel beam welder or even a balance beam gymnast.

I don't think they claimed that adept balance was unique to Ninjas, only that their training had credibility.

They had a Muay Thai guy fail miserably at the same exercize. I'm sure a world class gymnast would have better luck.

As for the brick breakers, It is a very cool feat but certain things in that study is not mentioned nor taken into account.


1) First, all the power is generated in a downward moment and full body weight behind it. They would be unable to generate the same power throwing a vertical punch.

By vertical do you mean in the air? Because downward is also a vertical strike. They can generate the energy horizontally as they did with the ice and massive brick stack (yes I know he used his body weight there).

He also used his head in a way in which it was hard to add his body weight.

Here is a spinning back kick being done on bricks:

Karate Brick Break

2) Like they said, it is a one shot deal that has to be set up perfectly

For the demonstration (I thought the "bricks do hit back" line was an amusing homage to Bruce Lee's famous Enter the Dragon Quote).

He's just saying that if done improperly the recoil could backfire on him.

I think the technique is designed to display the full power of such ability not make the statement that, "I can do this same thing in a real fight". You train to perfect the moves, but in a real fight we would expect the technique to be of lesser power yet still effective.

3) I didn't hear them discuss the structural design importance of the spacers.

Me either, but that's not a refutation of the legitimacy of Iron Palm.

4) There are Power hour guys that do the same thing these breakers do and they are untrained but **** me they do it with FAITH power.

Where can I see a video of this?

5) Well, to answer question MMA wise, it is not possible to generate that kind of power in a downward motion when a resisting opponent is underneath you unless they are motionless. The breaker's muscle stabilizer, if that is what they are called, are in a constant state of flux. They are also on their knees which limits their mechanical power generation because they are unable to generate the torque needed from foot>ankle>hips ect ect.

I was not suggesting that the same power in that display could be generated in a real fight, only addressing the claim that there had been no scientific proof that such displays were legit.

The reverse elbow Anderson Silva KO'd Fryklund with was a beautiful display of immense power being generated from a short distance.

But truth be told, I have never seen anyone get knocked out or injured by a standing palm, strike. I have seen people get knocked out by an open hand strike while they being GNP.

Hackney did atleast knock down Yarborough with a palm strike.

The effectiveness of the palm has to now be weighed vs the punch. The only problem I see using the palm more often than the punch would be possible stress damage over time. the way they both absorb and redistribute stress impact. But like the videos, a real scientific inquiry would be the only way to test that.

Again, I was only saying that Iron palm techniques could be used successfully, not that they would rival precision punching.


Two other technical concepts in TMAs I think have credibility are "Reaction Time" and "Muscle Memory", that is the ability to anticipate and dodge or counter an opponents attack seemingly instantaneously (or precognitively) and to perform complex combinations with above average accuracy.

Cung Le displays incredible Reaction Time. He slipped 3 spinning back fists from Fryklund as well as atleast one spinning back kick. He's also done this in several San Shou bouts.

Muscle memory could really be applied to boxing combos as well. Infact typing is a prime example of "muscle memory". Most of us likely type at an accelerated pace that someone inexperienced with a keyboard would not be able to do.

Some people can even achieve touch typist speed without looking at the keyboard.

I can agree with you that it could be effective but as far as the padding goes you may be right of course that is depending on how you strike using the palm. IF you do a dam willow palm I would say no way.

Whats wrong with willow palm?

[Fu-Pow]

Effective shoulder strikes used in MMA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfmf0GaftTc&eurl

From what I could tell those weren't "strikes" it was pushing with the shoulder. A "strike" indicates percussive force.

As an aside: Wow, wicked neck cranking in that video and the size difference is enormous. What event was that?

FP















.[/QUOTE]

[n00854180t]

As an aside re: typing, I find it incredibly strange when people that type quickly *do* look at the keyboard (I can do about ~60-80wpm consistently, though some of that is backspacing because of incorrect movements that generate more common words when a less common word is needed instead). I can type at this speed just as well when not looking at the screen too, which is the primary method of correcting mistakes, but this is because it's easy to know when one generated a wrong movement, such that correcting it becomes automatic. I know I've seen some information in limb replacement shows demonstrating that a typist's brain doesn't actually generate impulses anywhere near as complex as the resultant movement is (controlling the massive amount of movements required at that sort of level would require a stupid large amount of brainpower, so in fact it's instead "faked" almost).

On this topic I'm curious do you guys think this video is legit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmEwGohTPQ

Personally I think it *looks* like they weren't choreographed, as you can notice in the slow motion parts that either one of them dodges/moves immediately after the other initiates their attacks (I only say this because there were some people commenting that the kf guy was ducking/dodging before the TKD initiated his attacks, but upon close examination I don't see this to be true). It just seems that they have decently fast reaction times. I imagine as well that a choreographed fight would have involved more of the blows actually landing :P What's the point in choreographing a fight if you're going to have a large portion of it miss? I also know this movie is bandied about quite frequently, and there are probably 50 duplicates of it on YouTube. So I'm sure someone will chime in that there has already been a stupid large amount of discussion of it, but I'm too lazy to search or whatnot.

It does seem fishy at a basic level though. *shrug*

[Fu-Pow]

So to try and summarize RD's brilliant posts:

MMA roughly equivalent to a "back to basics" TMA + excellent groundfighting (which was either never part of TMA or has been lost to the ages.)

Sounds good to me. I really don't see what all the argument is about???

FP

P.S. For the record, some are trying to categorize me as a "pure" TCMA guy which couldn't be ****her from the truth. In fact, one thing that really changed my perspective was learning some basic boxing techniques, taking that training and applying that in a sport environment. It was much more applicable than the plethora of forms that I had learned previous to that.

I'm not advocating for the current TCMA practices as they stand today, I'm advocating the same thing as RD, a return to the basic practices without an emphasis on forms.

However, I still maintain that forms or no that there are some unique skills found in TCMA not found in other arts..... especially in the internal martial arts. Its obviously debatable and I'm happy to continue that debate.

[MysticNinjaJay]

I know I've seen some information in limb replacement shows demonstrating that a typist's brain doesn't actually generate impulses anywhere near as complex as the resultant movement is (controlling the massive amount of movements required at that sort of level would require a stupid large amount of brainpower, so in fact it's instead "faked" almost).

This is not suprising when considering the concept of muscle memory. When an action is done in repetition to the point where it resonates strongly enough in your mind, your brain does not charge as many synapses to replicate that task. It accesses the information more quickly.

The keystrokes are memorized allowing you to string together combinations of letters into sentences with tremendous accuracy, speed and efficiency.

It's not that it is "faked" you are just mastering a seemingly complex task and making it simple. Now if the standard keyboard buttons were rearranged it would take you alot longer to perform the exact same task. You would have to learn the keys all over again to regain that touch typist speed, because it is not your quick reflexes that dictate your speed it is your memory of the task that allows you to perform it accurately at quick speeds.

In the same way it is learning to read movements that allows you to anticipate actions, increasing your reaction time. A tennis player learns how to respond to motions on the court. The more familiar you are with those motions, the more accurately your eyes can follow the ball allowing you to complete a successful return.

Martial arts that take advantage of this concept have a reputation for incredible reflexes and reaction time to the point where they can evade attacks with seemingly precognitive ability or perform a strike with deadly speed and precision.

National Geographic: Fight Science - Speed and Reaction Time pt 1 (Starts at 6:00)

National Geographic: Fight Science - Speed and Reaction Time pt 2

On this topic I'm curious do you guys think this video is legit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmEwGohTPQ

Personally I think it *looks* like they weren't choreographed, as you can notice in the slow motion parts that either one of them dodges/moves immediately after the other initiates their attacks (I only say this because there were some people commenting that the kf guy was ducking/dodging before the TKD initiated his attacks, but upon close examination I don't see this to be true). It just seems that they have decently fast reaction times. I imagine as well that a choreographed fight would have involved more of the blows actually landing :P What's the point in choreographing a fight if you're going to have a large portion of it miss? I also know this movie is bandied about quite frequently, and there are probably 50 duplicates of it on YouTube. So I'm sure someone will chime in that there has already been a stupid large amount of discussion of it, but I'm too lazy to search or whatnot.

It does seem fishy at a basic level though. *shrug*

I don't know the circumstances behind this video, but its always appeared to be a sparring match to me.

The strikes don't appear to be delivered with intent of full contact but they are not necessarily choreographed. The action in the fight science videos I linked to above are definitely choreographed. These guys appear to be looking for openings. A non-choreographed sparring match at best.

Cung Le displayed some of the best examples of reaction time I have ever seen in an MMA fight against Tony Fryklund. That was definitely full contact, not choreographed and the legendary speed and evation theorized in the concepts of
"Muscle Memory" and "Reaction Time" were there.

[n00854180t]

MysticNinja: Yeah, that's actually what I meant by "faked" really.

As to the Cung Le v Fryklund fight, I have to agree he was quite excellent at reacting fast enough to avoid Frylund's attacks. I think Fryklund started to lose his will after many of those kicks were landed.

Re: the video, I don't really think it's choreographed either, as as you note either fighter is looking for openings to attack.

[MasterKiller]

Grapplers don't use shoulder strikes because, at most, all that would do would push the opponent away. Grapplers want to control and finish the opponent, not push him away.

Most of the shoulder strikes I've seen in MMA occur on the ground or when someone is pinned against the cage. In those situations, a grappler doesn't have to worry about creating space with the hit.

Leben uses them quite a bit.

[Knifefighter]

An iron palm practioner breaks through hard objects that would break a boxer's hand.

No, the Iron Palmer does parlor trick breaking. If he tried to actually fight for real, he would be just as likely to break his hand as the boxer. I have yet to see the guy who breaks things in demos be able to step out back and strike through a brick wall in the alley outside.

Master Duan Bao Hua (the nipple striker as you called him) demonstrated Dim Mak on live students.

Mind Body & Kickass Moves - Dim Mak / Death Touch

LOL... more rip-off brainwashing of students.

[Knifefighter]

From what I could tell those weren't "strikes" it was pushing with the shoulder. A "strike" indicates percussive force.

That was my point. The "pushing" that you saw there is how a shoulder strike would work against a live resisting opponent... more like a football block.

As an aside: Wow, wicked neck cranking in that video and the size difference is enormous. What event was that?

That was an MMA event from Brazil.

[Knifefighter]

On this topic I'm curious do you guys think this video is legit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmEwGohTPQ

Personally I think it *looks* like they weren't choreographed,

That was a demo.

It wasn't choreographed, per se. However, it is obvious by watching it that one person plays defense, while the other person launches an attack, basically trading off on offense and defense.

In real fighting, both fighters will often launch offensive or counter attacks at the same time.