The CMA Ground Challenge!

[MasterKiller]

Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such.

But I know he know it, 'cause he's taught me..

So which came first, the locks and armbars or him teaching you?

Every Sifu I have trained with since has let me "use" in free sparring. Every one has shown me the KF equvelant of what I did after class. I have seen people come right out and ask to be taught and herd Sifu tell them that if they want to roll, go find a jujitsu school.

Seeing something and going "HEY, WE HAVE THAT TOO!" is not the same thing as having an established system in place, which is why they keep telling you to go to a jujitsu school to learn it.

[PangQuan]

This is a good post, and I agree to a 'T'

It makes you think of man in general.

Since when have we, in the history of man, ever known one man to hold all the answers?

Never.

We have always had to share information to improve our technology and the understanding of pretty much anything we have developed to a highly refined skill set.

why should we think today is any different, that anyone has the answers all wrapped up nice and neat in a perfect little cma package?

I think one of the largest aspects that contributed to the development of CMA as a whole was the sharing of information, I am sure many of you would agree with this.

As this information sharing, in China's past, was predominantly the sharing of Chinese knowledge, is it not time to add the rest of the worlds information to the total of what China has given us?

To me it would seem the correct path to follow in keeping true to the roots of CMA.

In addition, you are seeing more and more of this as time goes on in the present. LOTS of guys/gals are crosstraining to fill any voids they might notice in thier game.

Whether CMA has good groundfighting/grappling is near errelivant(sp) at this point. EIther its not there or the teachers often times are not teaching it. Bad teachers....bad teachers...

anyhow, its a trend I personally notice getting stronger and stronger in todays modern martial art world in regards to TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't care much for MMA, outside the ruleset, for too many reason to discuss, suffice to say the "jack of all trades" factor is too high for me, BUT cross-training is truly the only way to benefit from the SPECIFIC SKILLS AND SPECIFIC EXPERIENCES a MA who train one thing above anything else.

You don't go to the dentist to get a prostate exam.

Unless you are one freaky mofu !!

[Becca]

So which came first, the locks and armbars or him teaching you?

I was rather spacific, though your taking it out of contex does make it seem otherwise...

Seeing something and going "HEY, WE HAVE THAT TOO!" is not the same thing as having an established system in place, which is why they keep telling you to go to a jujitsu school to learn it.

Exactly. KF does not consider their ground work a seperate system, but rather a part of the whole. You want only the ground work, go to a school that focuses on ground work. You want the whole thing, stick around and the instructor will teach it to you in time, when he/she thinks your training has progressed enough to understand it. Don't like that? Too bad; that's how he/she teaches.

This is not a concept Western cultures deal well with. 90% of western adults throw a fit when told they have to wait for something. Then follows the curious logic that if I didn't get my way, then the failing is with them not with me. And, of course, if they aren't willing to let me have my way, then they must be faking, right?

[tattooedmonk]

I was rather spacific, though your taking it out of contex does make it seem otherwise...


Exactly. KF does not consider their ground work a seperate system, but rather a part of the whole. You want only the ground work, go to a school that focuses on ground work. You want the whole thing, stick around and the instructor will teach it to you in time, when he/she thinks your training has progressed enough to understand it. Don't like that? Too bad; that's how he/she teaches.

This is not a concept Western cultures deal well with. 90% of western adults throw a fit when told they have to wait for something. Then follows the curious logic that if I didn't get my way, then the failing is with them not with me. And, of course, if they aren't willing to let me have my way, then they must be faking, right?

Very good Becca.

[MasterKiller]

I was rather spacific, though your taking it out of contex does make it seem otherwise...

I quoted you in the order you said it. Either you knew joint locks before you started CMA, or you learned them in CMA. Which is it?

Exactly. KF does not consider their ground work a seperate system, but rather a part of the whole. You want only the ground work, go to a school that focuses on ground work. You want the whole thing, stick around and the instructor will teach it to you in time, when he/she thinks your training has progressed enough to understand it. Don't like that? Too bad; that's how he/she teaches.

Um....no. Does your teacher also send you to a boxing school if you want to learn to punch? Or a MT school to teach you to kick? Sounds like he's passing the buck, to me.

This is not a concept Western cultures deal well with. 90% of western adults throw a fit when told they have to wait for something. Then follows the curious logic that if I didn't get my way, then the failing is with them not with me. And, of course, if they aren't willing to let me have my way, then they must be faking, right?

Us dumb Gwai Lo's can't learn real gung fu...

[Becca]

I quoted you in the order you said it. Either you knew joint locks before you started CMA, or you learned them in CMA. Which is it?

...Then my first Sifu noticed I already knew how to lock joint and bar arms and such. Every Sifu I have trained with since has let me "use" in free sparring. Every one has shown me the KF equvelant of what I did after class.

How much more spacific do you want? A minute for minute time line? As I said, I was rather spacific, but taking things out of context makes it look otherwise.

And yes, if all I wanted to do was box, my sifu would send me across the streat to the boxing gym. If you want to learn Kung Fu from him, you learn it his way. Which is to say, the complete style taught in the order he thinks will produce the best results. This "order" is different for each student, as he knows we are not all cookie cutter perfect. You have to trust your teacher to teach. You have to have faith that he/she knows what they are doing. Or you quit. That simple.

[tattooedmonk]

In addition, you are seeing more and more of this as time goes on in the present. LOTS of guys/gals are crosstraining to fill any voids they might notice in thier game.

Whether CMA has good groundfighting/grappling is near errelivant(sp) at this point. EIther its not there or the teachers often times are not teaching it. Bad teachers....bad teachers...

anyhow, its a trend I personally notice getting stronger and stronger in todays modern martial art world in regards to TCMA.

It is not the art that is the problem it is the teachers. I believe that alot can be learned from other styles who specifically focus on certain aspects of fighting because they are specialist at it. If you want to know how to punch a boxer if you want wrestle a wrestler, and etc,
Kung fu actually is a mixed martial art if you really look at it. Especially Shaolin a great deal of CMA are hybrid arts focusing on different aspects of fighting . Am I not correct?? >>>>!!

[Becca]

Oh, now you've done it.... You thought this was a flame war before....

[Three Harmonies]

Becca
You don't know me well enough to accuse me of not being "o"bjective! As Master has stated, you doing a technique in sparring and your teacher going "Yeah we have that." is not the same as learning a technique from him. Principles are principles. Their is no "kung fu" way ("kung fu/gong fu" means hard work, it is not a style). Their is a right way and an incorrect way.
So please do share what style you study under whom? Any video of you or your style playing with a ground grappler?
As stated before systems such as Di Tang / Fukien Dog boxing etc. etc. have basic ideas of how to kick while on the ground, protect from being stomped, and a basic sweep or two. Nothing extensive. Nothing applicable to someone who is actively trying to grapple on the ground with you. Basics sure, but nothing anywhere near half of the curriculum of Sambo / Judo / BJJ / Fusen Ryu etc.

This thread is a perfect example of why CMA as a whole are suffering in popularity. We have shovel fulls of BS being thrown around with nothing to back it up. We have the "I cannot ask my master-sifu-guru-sensei to show me something because it is Chinese traditon that they are stubborn....blah, blah," martial arts aren't for fighting..................................
And in 10 years when we ask why no one sticks around in the CMA we can look back at this kind of ****, and say, "Oh....we did it to ourselves."


Tattoo-
So are you going to side step my suggestion of playing at open mat with Tim and his boys, and taping it? Seriously they are cool, and are always open to being shown how wrong they are, and Tim especially will appreciate you educating his ignorant ass!
I did not say I fight, I said I have been in them.

Jake

[Lama Pai Sifu]

chin na could be used, and I've done it (including submitting a BJJ BB so there!) but there is nothing I've seen in CMA that teaches the same sort of body movement on the ground that western wrestling, judo, jj or bjj does.

I flat out don't believe you.

[Oso]

I done laid down the word on 'grappling' in CMA.

T'aint none. Quit yer tusslin and go do something worthwhile.

Besides, Tatto is SD and that immediately disqualifies him from any argument regarding traditional CMA.

[Oso]

I flat out don't believe you.

I don't care.

[tattooedmonk]

I done laid down the word on 'grappling' in CMA.

T'aint none. Quit yer tusslin and go do something worthwhile.

Besides, Tatto is SD and that immediately disqualifies him from any argument regarding traditional CMA.

I guess you missed the fact that I am no longer affiliated and have studied under other CMA masters.

You can think what you like .

You are full of yourself have too much pride and ego in the way to see that you just might not know all that you should know about CMA and that you just might be wrong.

[tattooedmonk]

I don't care.

Oh yes you do. you care . I can see how it is with you and the guys that hug your nuts around here. You care when they hang on your every word ,so it stand to reason that you care when they do not. You do not have enough humility ,self confidence , self esteem, or anything else that you need not to. If you did not care you would not have responded to it.