Is Chi Sau for fighting?

[Knifefighter]

LOL... I guess for someone who is as cloistered as you are, this was a huge "clash of the styles" kind of deal. In actuality it was just a friendly slappy-slap session with me simply working to get clinch/takedown range and him trying to keep me outside.

However, just to fill you in on the clips you missed:

1- There was only one "getting back to his feet"... the one you saw. In the others there was no "getting back to his feet" or any other "escape" moves.

2- We had decided there was to be no ground fighting, hence my stoppage (instead of a heel hook attack) from the open guard. During the other takedowns, we had stopped on the ground once I had the takedown.

3- I've always believed WC can be used effectively in a defensive manner to keep an opponent off, especially if you are bigger and have unlimted space in which to stay outside and move. I believe the shortcoming show up when you do not have a size advantage and/or unlimited space in which to move and try to use it offensively.

4- I was impressed that Rashun instinctively knew what to do from the low single, although he was still taken down. I credit that to his natural athletic ability and instinct, rather than WC principles.

However, I am open to the possibility of this being a result of his WC training and am interested in discussing this matter further...

Can you explain the WC principle(s) that would be involved in defending the low single leg attack (ala John Smith style- head inside, hand behind heel, driving forward with shoulder pushing into shin)?

[stricker]

thanks cjurakpt, andrewS, anerlich for some really good bits in there.

[anerlich]

I think by fixed patterns he is talking about "forms" only, not drilled patterns.

Nah.

On his "Aliveness" DVD from his first JKD series, he shows "dead" and "alive" focus pad drills, stick counters, and armlocks.

He doesn't talk about "fixed" patterns, he talks about "dead" patterns.

[sihing]

Instead of coming up with your own theories of how to train, why not look at and listen to people who know what they are talking about? Look to what all proven good fighters and fight trainers are doing. I know this is a strange idea -- actually listen to proven experts as opposed to those people who just call themselves experts, the theoretical nonfighters.

That's why I spent sometime in LA, to listen to the experts You may not believe they know what they are doing there in regards to WC useage in a fight, but you haven't met them. I'm sure Sifu Lam would love a visit from you if you are willing to take a ride down to LA, he loves that sort of stuff. It's new blood for him, lol.

For me it would be financially impossible to investigate all the so called fighters out there personally. I took a chance of someone last year and was totally satisfied with what I saw and learned, they know how to fight plane and simple.

James

[sihing]

Everyone uses drills. Unrealistic drills are excellent as means of teaching skills; realistic drills are excellent for developing realistic skills.



I am not "parroting" anyone. I may - in somecases - sound like Thornton because we happen to share similar views, and when you share similar views, you say similar things.

And, I'm not saying "just fight and you'll get it" -- I'm saying that we should train wCK in the same way all good fighters train, whether in BJJ, boxing, wrestling, sambo, judo, etc.



And if you bother to read my posts, you'll see that I am saying that unrealsitic drills are how people learn skills, and that they need to be unrealistic to permit the focus for acquisition. So you may learn some skill in fixed drill, then put it into a more dynamic context (chi sao) -- all as a means of learning (becoming comfortable with performance) that skill. Then to put that skill into a realistic context, whether realistic drill or sparring. And then, you need to put it into sparring with quality opponents.



No, there is more to it than that. The whole "traditional mindset" that goes along with the TMAs, including WCK, of which training is a part is the issue.



Again, it is more than that. The skills you develop at #1 and #2 are not what you will be doing at #3 (it's not just do the same things with more pressure) -- when you step it up to a realistic environment, you'll find that you need to alter, modify, change, etc. what you have been previously doing, to develop something different. Walking is not running; they are entirely different motor programs. It's only when you begin actually sparring, that you are actually doing the activity. Only at that stage do we begin to develop real skill, and the corresponding knowledge and understanding of WCK. Moreover, you need to put it all together into your individual game (which can't be done at #1 and #2). Sparring/fighting is the game.

I think I've learned more about what you are really talking about in this post than in any other. Basically you have to take the skills learned and test them out in a non structured, realistically intense fighting environment to see what's up. Sounds good to me. I think basically you are talking about high level stuff, for people that have more than a basic structure and application within them. The thing is not all of us are at that stage of development yet.

For me, I am starting over again and at the stage where precise structure and such has to be maintained. If I freelance too much, old habits come back and I start to compensate, using muscles and tricks that are not really teaching me anything VT related. I use way to much shoulder and speed instead of setting up my position and allowing my structure to bypass the shoulder involvement so that the power is setup by my sitting and the ground. Basic stuff yes, but not taught to me before in my TWC training.

James

[Liddel]

... the traditional training model is crap, and the fact that there are no good fighters in TMAs who haven't at least adopted the more modern means of training into their regimen, proves it.
The traditional approach to training was perhaps the best they had in the past when they didn't know as much about fighting and about athletic performance development as we do today.

Its important to note to that this argument was used in VT's favour towards other TCMA's by many masters of earlier generations.

VT is very young compared to other CMA's and its methods were considered more modern and therefore more effective due to that fact.

So of course this has also been true of VT as todays training methods continue to evolve. But our views on wether they have become redundant differ.
Some perhaps, but not all IME.

One point id like to make though is that alot of CMA's have taken a step back from where they were.
My Sifu along with his peers used to fight almost all the time. Fighting for real was quite common between different styles, even between schools of the same style and on occasion with weapons.

Gm Ip sent my Sifu to a VT school once to fight the master because he was supposedly marketing his school as VT when he was a hybrid, my master was told to fight and he did.

I think the traditional methods or mindset, apart from the obvious discoveries about "athletic performance " had more similarities to today than most realise.

[cjurakpt]

Chris,
Any research on initiating with random/high interference, then swithcing to blocked/low interference, and then back to R/H?

funny, actually we ooked at this for my master's thesis: we had people perform a novel complex motor task - picking up bottons of 3 different sizes with chopsticks and putting them into a container; we had three groups, one did B (10 small, 10 medium, 10 large), one R (all mixed up) and one B/R (5 of each, then last 15 mixed) - well, we didn't find much difference between groups, but possibly because a) our sample was small (~10-12 people per group), b) our inclusion criteria were probably too lax (we initially wanted people who had never used chopsticks, but because that was only like 5 people, we included people who had only used them once before and / or not within the last year, or something lame like that), and / or 3), perhaps most importantly, the relatively complexity of the novel motor task was probably too hard intrinsically, and so there wasn't enough time for people to get the idea of actual chopstick use before seeing how practice schedule impacted their retention and transfer skills;

this last point, in and of itself, however, is interesting, and highlights a "problem" with a lot of the early motor learning studies: a lot of the initial research was done on relatively "abstract" tasks like moving a cursor through a maze on a screen - this was the sort of thing that initially showed a difference between blocked and random practice - however, when researchers started looking at "real world" tasks, it became more complex than just B vs. R schedules - for example, CI effect became very important, as it seemingly could overide the effects of practice schedule if it was too high initially; whereas if the task was simple enough, even with high initial CI, (e.g. - using a mouse cursor on a maze, while standing on a shifting balance platform would be a simple task with higher CI) you could see a greater practice schedule effect; but if it was a motor task such as using chopsticks, high CI initially would totally override practice schedule; I think that soeone made the distinction between internal CI (characteristics of the task itself) versus external CI (demands of the environment)

thinking about your example, I'd say that if the task itself was not too complex, then the random / high CI would yield poorer results initially then random (or blocked) under low CI, but if practice was long enough (duration of practice is another important parameter to consider), performance would improve, and you'd also see good retention and transfer (the reason given for random creating this efect is because it requires on-going, active "re-figuring" out by the brain each time, so the brain is "used" to dealing with changing and unpredictable situations), if during transfer testing the task is not too disimilar (also an area of study - how disimilar does the transfer task have to be from the practice one to see lack of effect); however, after this, switching to a blocked / low CI wouldn't really make too much sense to me - unless it was a very short interval that was being used as a sort of "rest' period (as extended sessions of blocked practice seem to tend to degrade performance in the long run, as it got to a point where the person no longer had to actively "figure out" what to do and does it by rote, which impedes their ablity to act in a responsive way to random / high CI);

any reason you asked abut this particular sequence?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay, Dale...now please read this carefully. From this moment on, I am no longer going to refer to you as Dale Franks/Knifefighter.

No.

From now on....you're: MIGHTY MOUSE.

You're about 5' 5" tall...and you weight about 140 soaking wet.

And you've clearly gotten the "mouse that roared" thing waaaaay too deep into your psyche.

You're talented...BJJ blackbelt, MMA venues, Dog brothers, etc....you can punch, you can kick, you can fight/grapple in the clinch...you can fight/grapple on the ground...you know how to use sticks and knives.

Great. And yes, I've seen your vids (not just the light sparring with Rahsun - but the other ones as well)...you're good.

No, I'll amend that. You're very good.

But you're also a GIANT A-HOLE who knows basically NOTHING about wing chun...and basically NOTHING about what's really going on in the wing chun world - or who's really who (both literally - and in terms of talent).

And you spend enormous amounts of time on this forum over the last 3 years or so basically trying to rip into people. In fact, I think it's fair to say that about 80% of your posts do nothing other than making an attempt to criticize/belittle wing chun people and what they're doing and about 20% is constructive criticism/intelligent discussion about various aspects of fighting.

That's a really 5hitty percentage, mighty mouse...

because YOU ARE A CLASSIC TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE OF A GUY WITH THE SMALL MAN'S NAPOLEANIC COMPLEX...wherein you relentlessly attempt to belittle other men so that you can somehow manage to feel bigger than them.

But you see - this tactic never really works. If it did work - then you would have done it once or twice - gotten the satisfaction you crave - and then that would be the end of it.

But NO.

You need to keep coming back for more...and more..and more... and more...ad nauseum.

Because it doesn't work. In the end - you're still mighty mouse.

Now let's look at the latest from your "mm" mind (notice the lower case letters - how appropriate, don't you think? )...to see where, once again - you've gone astray.

..........................


"I seriously doubt there are more than a couple of people in the WC world who have explored using WC "in depth" where it counts (in actual fighting) as much as I have." (mm)


***MORE CLUELESSNESS from a guy who couldn't possibly know what's going on in all of North America, South America, Europe, Australia, Asia....but certainly another classic example of the delusional pseudo-superiority complex (hiding feelings of inferiority) that mm suffers from.



"In addition to a bunch of real fights, I've explored using it in kickboxing, Muay Thai, boxing, MMA, and stick fighting matches. While I have managed to 'make it work" in limited amounts, my conclusion is that there are better methods of training available." (mm)


***A CONCLUSION based upon an extremely limited exposure to real wing chun principles, strategies, techniques, training methods, etc. And certainly NOTHING high-level. But mm "knows" he's right. Yeah...riiiiiight.



"VT = Emin's lineage, especially many of the european groups.
WC = 99% of the rest of the WC world." (mm)


MORE FOOLISH CLUELESSNESS...because he clearly doesn't know that Emin Boztepe is WT (not VT).

And speaking of VT....mm lives within a short drive of Gary Lam's school - but absolutely refuses to ever go there for a visit - claiming that he thinks he won't get to see anything worthwhile.

NO, no, no...not so fast, sunny...

You won't go because Gary is 6' tall and weighs well over 200 lbs. - and you're afraid that you might get your a55 kicked if you joined in. (And my guess is that's a very well founded fear - since Gary is one of the best around - regardless of his size).


"LOL... I guess for someone who is as cloistered as you are, this was a huge 'clash of the styles' kind of deal. In actuality it was just a friendly slappy-slap session with me simply working to get clinch/takedown range and him trying to keep me outside.

However, just to fill you in on the clips you missed:

1- There was only one "getting back to his feet"... the one you saw. In the others there was no "getting back to his feet" or any other "escape" moves." (mm)


***THAT'S NOT WHAT I HEARD from Phil Redmond, who was not only there - but he filmed it...and he says that you took Rahsun down a few times but that each time Rahsun got back up to his feet really fast (ie.- you couldn't capitalize on the takedown at all).



"2- We had decided there was to be no ground fighting, hence my stoppage (instead of a heel hook attack) from the open guard."


***NOT WHAT I HEARD - AND NOT WHAT I SAW ON THE VID...I saw you with my own two eyes trying to work at grabbing his ankles while you were stacked in guard - and I also saw that you were eating chain punches to the mid section and one to the face in the process.


"During the other takedowns, we had stopped on the ground once I had the takedown." (mm)


***NOT WHAT I HEARD.


"3- I've always believed WC can be used effectively in a defensive manner to keep an opponent off, especially if you are bigger and have unlimited space in which to stay outside and move." (mm)


***AND AGAIN...you believe that because you've never had any clue (and was never taught) how to use wing chun from very close range to barrage people with all kinds of striking techniques.


"I believe the shortcoming show up when you do not have a size advantage and/or unlimited space in which to move and try to use it offensively." (mm)


***SEE ABOVE.

[Knifefighter]

1- There was only one "getting back to his feet"... the one you saw. In the others there was no "getting back to his feet" or any other "escape" moves." (mm)
***THAT'S NOT WHAT I HEARD from Phil Redmond, who was not only there - but he filmed it...and he says that you took Rahsun down a few times but that each time Rahsun got back up to his feet really fast (ie.- you couldn't capitalize on the takedown at all).
"During the other takedowns, we had stopped on the ground once I had the takedown." (mm)
"2- We had decided there was to be no ground fighting, hence my stoppage (instead of a heel hook attack) from the open guard."
***NOT WHAT I HEARD.

Phil seems like a really nice guy with a lot of integrity, so I doubt he said this to you.

Because if he did....

HE WOULD BE A LIAR....

which I seriously doubt he is.

However, you might want to sit down and have a talk with him because the statements you are making are complete falsehoods and he should know that you are making him out to be a LIAR . Either you got confused on what he told you (which based on your posts is probably the case) or one of you is a LIAR.

I don't take kindly to people lying about things related to me and take that kind of thing very seriously. If he did make those lies to you (which I very seriously doubt he did), he and I would have very big problems (which I don't think we do).

You won't go because Gary is 6' tall and weighs well over 200 lbs. - and you're afraid that you might get your a55 kicked if you joined in. (And my guess is that's a very well founded fear - since Gary is one of the best around - regardless of his size).

LOL... I fight 250 + lb guys full contact, NHB with sticks. I really don't worry too much about getting beaten up.



As far as the rest... OK, I'm clueless about the real WC... and I'm an @$$hole (at least in the Bizarro internet world)... and you are right, I don't know what all the WC guys fight credentials are in terms of fighting with WC in different venues (I'm guessing you know, so I'll wait to let you list who they are what events each has fought in)


Now that that's out of the way, how about our technical discussion?

How do WC principles apply to the counter of the low single leg takedown I described above?

[faizal80]

just because people discussed it before, i think we should have the right to discuss it again. i don't think one group of people possesses all the knowledge. i think chi sau can be used for fighting. not in the way it is practiced in the dojo etc..., but the principle of it. you can take a principle and express it in many ways and i think chi sau is one of those ways. when it comes to fighting, the principle of chi sau can be represented in the person but if you stand there and get into you chi sau stance and this kind of thing. then you are going to get you butt wopped. this is just how i very the martial arts and chi sau. peace love and inity

[t_niehoff]

I think I've learned more about what you are really talking about in this post than in any other. Basically you have to take the skills learned and test them out in a non structured, realistically intense fighting environment to see what's up. Sounds good to me. I think basically you are talking about high level stuff, for people that have more than a basic structure and application within them. The thing is not all of us are at that stage of development yet.

You see this as "high level" because you believe there are all these preliminary hoops to jump through first -- and what I am trying to get across is that most of those hoops not only aren't necessary, they are counter-productive.

For me, I am starting over again and at the stage where precise structure and such has to be maintained. If I freelance too much, old habits come back and I start to compensate, using muscles and tricks that are not really teaching me anything VT related. I use way to much shoulder and speed instead of setting up my position and allowing my structure to bypass the shoulder involvement so that the power is setup by my sitting and the ground. Basic stuff yes, but not taught to me before in my TWC training.
James

My perspective is that this has nothing to do with "structure", but has to do with how you *use* your body. What is the "structure" to throwing a ball?

But I agree with you, that first you need to learn how to use your body (and when you can comfortably do that), and you do that with unrealistic drills (including chi sao). But once you can do that comfortably and reliably, then you need to put that into realistic drills and sparring to develop it into fighting skills. Practicing it forever in chi sao, for instance, will never develop it into fighting skills.

[t_niehoff]

Its important to note to that this argument was used in VT's favour towards other TCMA's by many masters of earlier generations.

VT is very young compared to other CMA's and its methods were considered more modern and therefore more effective due to that fact.

So of course this has also been true of VT as todays training methods continue to evolve. But our views on wether they have become redundant differ.
Some perhaps, but not all IME.

One point id like to make though is that alot of CMA's have taken a step back from where they were.

Yes, they have and that is a very good first step. However, they are trying to mix oil and water: use some modern traiing methods while retaining the traditional training stuff. For example, they still do "form practice" even though it is totally unnecessary to skill development (so at a minimum a waste of training time) and, in fact, can arguably be detrimental to skill development.

I think the next step in the TMA evolution is to recognize that the "traditional mindset" is a huge part of the problem, because as long as we are "thinking" that way, it will hold us back from development. And so we need to adopt the more modern mindset (common to all functional arts, sports, athletes).

My Sifu along with his peers used to fight almost all the time. Fighting for real was quite common between different styles, even between schools of the same style and on occasion with weapons.

Gm Ip sent my Sifu to a VT school once to fight the master because he was supposedly marketing his school as VT when he was a hybrid, my master was told to fight and he did.

I think the traditional methods or mindset, apart from the obvious discoveries about "athletic performance " had more similarities to today than most realise.

Of course the traditional guys fought as you mention above, but just because they fought doesn't mean they weren't caught in the traditional mindset. It's not just the fighting -- modern fighters are using sparring as the core of their training, that they see the fighting/sparring as their "art" (activity), they are seeking out quality opponents (the best they can find), they are pursuing results and not trying to adhere to some "system" (the very notion of a hybrid is a traditional mindset), etc. The two mindsets are oil and water: they don't mix.

[t_niehoff]

As far as the rest... OK, I'm clueless about the real WC... and I'm an @$$hole (at least in the Bizarro internet world)... and you are right, I don't know what all the WC guys fight credentials are in terms of fighting with WC in different venues (I'm guessing you know, so I'll wait to let you list who they are what events each has fought in)


Now that that's out of the way, how about our technical discussion?

How do WC principles apply to the counter of the low single leg takedown I described above?

A textbook example of avoiding the discussion with personal attacks.

[Ultimatewingchun]

On the contrary - mm's latest post is a textbook example in avoidance of the real issues...which in this case....

is his OBNOXIOUS BEHAVIOR ON THIS FORUM.

That's now the issue - and will remain the issue until the 80/20 percentage ratio drastically changes. Enough is enough with this guy and his constant attempts to beat people down around here - as if he's the BIG MAN - and the rest of us are small little kids.

That crap has got to end...because it's poisoning the wing chun forum.

And as for Phil Redmond lying to me....LOL

Phil and I are the best of friends, and we know each other for over 20 years.

And as for me just simply getting the story wrong - LOL again...as Phil told me on more than one occasion that each time Rahsun was taken down he immediately got back up to his feet without impunity.

As for EVERYTHING ELSE I said on my last post - it's also true. Every word of it.

The guy is clueless about wing chun...afraid to go to Gary Lam's...makes all kinds of ridulous claims about the system...about the people in the system - and about himself.

THAT'S LYING.

Mighty Mouse lies to himself and he attempts to lie to the rest of us about who he really is - and about who/what we are.

Like yourself, Terence...the little man should see a shrink.

[t_niehoff]

Stop the personal stuff. Stick to issues.