Does anyone know anything about this school?

[Royal Dragon]

That little GIF of the grandmaster in his profile. He was doing an American Kenpo defense move. Block, eye gouge, grab groin and pull, step back into a guard.

Reply]
I thought the same myself.

[David Jamieson]

it's Karate...I think... and it's not even Karate they're proud of because they call it kungfu which it obviously isn't in the blanket term sense of the word.

[Yum Cha]

You know they don't know what they don't know.

I't doesn't look like a outright rip-off like Shaolin Do, but.

[larryc]

I see this thread and I can clarify a few things for some of you, since I trained with these guys and knew them pretty well years ago. Keep in mind, they might have changed over the years and I am recounting a period from the mid 1970's to the late 1980's.

First and foremost, both Abbate and Gangi deserve respect.

Abbate and Gangi did not train together. They happen to have co-existed long enough in the Chicago area to become acquaintances and probably friends, but they did not learn together, they do not train together (that I am aware of), and what they teach/practice are miles apart from each other.

John Tsai is who Abbate has regarded as his master or teacher over the years, but I think Abbate's training started in his childhood before he met Tsai- I think Abbate boxed in the Boy's Club and studied TKD or karate as a youth. Gangi did not train with Tsai.

Starting with Steve Abbate. First, this guy is a veteran of the Vietnam War and, like all veterans including our men and women fighting in Iraq, he deserves the utmost respect for voluntarily risking his life and suffering physical and emotional hardship. There are newspapers columns - maybe Chicago Sun Times or Tribune- no problem verifying truthfulness here- he served in the Marine Corps and was awared at least one Purple Heart and, I believe, the Silver Star. He had a brother, Richard I think, who was killed in action and whose name is on the Wall in Washington, DC- saw it on on the Wall with my own eyes.

I can understand some of the cynical reactions that I read from some of your posts in this thread. I realize both Abbate and Gangi do not reflect the humble, monk-like images we form of traditional martial arts masters. And they wear flashy uniforms with bright colors and sinister logos, and they claim to have ranks in obscurely named styles etc. So you think maybe they made this stuff up and awarded themselves ranks, like some people do, don't you? I don't blame you for thinking that if you never met them, but read on.

The first time I saw Abbate was around 1974 or 1975, when I just started karate (my teachers learned Okinawan Kempo from Eizo Shimabuku while serving in the US military and being stationed in Okinawa- i.e., Shobayashi Ryu or Shorin Ryu). Abbate came as a guest to spar with a guy in our school who was testing for black belt. What a show-- I was nine years old and I remember it like yesterday. A few years later, after my school closed so my instructor could become a full time attorney, my brothers and I joined the famous "Cobra Kai" in Palatine IL, run by Steve Abbate.

Abbate's classes were designed for one purpose: to teach you how to kill or maim someone who is trying to kill or maim you. Period. He was not trying to teach you how to win point tournaments, how to kickbox, or how to recite art history of Asian culture and to kneel or serve tea properly in accordance with tradition. If you are interested in that, and I respect you if you are, or if you care about having the right number of pleat folds in your uniform, join the JKA shotokan club or take Aikido.

Cobra Kai was extremely intense and violent and there were many injuries. We did not learn or practice forms, we did not spend much time executing basics or combinations, Abbate did not correct students' form/posture etc. Instead, it was a brutally fast-paced session of conditioning, HARD contact self-defense drills of attacking/responding in flurries and finishing almost always with hair-pull take-downs-- on a concrete floor. No pads. Just pain and occasional blood. My brothers and I had good technique from the karate training, but his students lacked in technique except for the more experienced guys who learned by doing enough repetitions and mimicking off visual clues. There was some "sparring"- basically full-contact with "kempo" gloves- wearing your gym shoes, forget foot padding. At one point he introduced headgear which did not prevent noses, lips and ribs from getting crushed. Had my brothers and I not been well-trained in sparring, and had we not been robust teenagers so that we could avoid injury against his students, we might not have lasted. And make no mistake, we could beat some of his guys in "sparring"- but a real fight is a much different deal. Cobra Kai guys were plain dangerous, so just because you could handle one in a sparring session-- even a crazy sparring session - it does not mean you would defeat one for real.

Abbate was(probably still is) an absolutely ferocious fighter. He stands about 5'7" and is thickly built, but he moves like a bolt of lightening. He attacks with rapid-fire flurries of hand strikes that you honest-to-goodnessly cannot see with your eyes. You just hear the sound of flesh being rapidly and repeatedly hammered in staccatto fashion. On a number of occasions I've seen him chop apart much larger and stronger men- and not just his students. His sparring and his self-defense drills blur without much distinction. He was really into iron palm and in class when he would block your arm or "tap" you with a strike it truly felt like a rock hitting you. I think there is something to that iron palm training.

Conditioning was crazy...probably illegal nowadays. He would line us up in horse-stances with our hands behind our backs and side thrust kick us to the ground telling us to tighten up and yell. We had iron palm and large piece of telephone pole that we had to strike bare-handed. He stood with his face a few inches from it to make sure you hit it hard. Sometimes we had to lift the telephone pole as a group and carry it or bench press it etc. He did not tolerate slackers. His barking and insane look in his eyes made you push out those last few pushups, leg lifts etc when you would otherwise want to quit. He would swing a sword as we ran laps and you had to jump the sword-- he made it higher with each lap. We stomped across each other's abs while the other person was lying down. We did self defense only with real knive and real sawed off pieces of steel pipe. And people got real lacerations and had real stitches. Class was stressful and nerve racking- like being in a fight for 2 1/2 hours five days per week. You never knew what was going to happen each class, but you expected pain and possible injury. Saturdays were special--- long runs outside, up a hill. Those of us who stayed were addicts - probably addicted to the overwhelming confidence you would feel walking out of the school. Despite his physical demands on us, he was an affectionate and fatherly personality, very charismatic. He was a great motivator and coach. We would follow this man into battle if he asked.

Abbate himself was most certainly trained in a more formal style of kung fu than he was teaching us. He would do beautiful forms at demonstrations or in tournaments, but never once taught them to us. I used to think he was holding out on us. But, in reality, he was intentionally running a SELF-DEFENSE and CONDITIONING class. And he most effectively achieved his goal. Anyone who lasted a month or more would definitely be able to defend himself in a real situation. No- you would not do well in a point tournament, kickboxing match or a forms/kata competition. And you deservedly could not claim to be trained in any recognizable system of kung fu. But Abbate definitely was.

(continued in next post)

[larryc]

(part 2)


Master John Tsai would occasionally visit Abbate's school and we got to learn snippets of self-defense from him. Tsai was incredibly fast with his hand strikes and his kicks. He could hit you before you could blink. He seems thin in profile but the guy appeared to be rippled like Bruce Lee and I have no doubt his is/was a well-conditioned and skillful fighter. I truly doubt Abbate would pay deference to him or compliment him in any way if that were not the case. So Tsai is most likely for real. I see on Tsai's website that Tsai's son, "Johnny", is running Tsai's old school. I don't know Johnny, but if he trained with and hung around with guys like his dad, Abbate, LeBron and others-- I think Johnny is another person you should have tons of respect for.

Like some of you, I also think Abbate was the inspiration for the Cobra Kai character in "Karate Kid"- only the movie watered down the character so much- made him seem like a creampuff compared to the real Abbate. Maybe nobody would believe such a guy exists so the movie had to lighten him up.

I lasted at Cobra Kai for less than two years before I got a fractured nose that needed surgery (Abbate himself palm-striked me at my blue sash test). He apologized and felt bad, and I eventually accepted it. In fact, a few years later when I was 16 he hosted my Okinawan Kempo black belt test at his school. Of course that meant that I had to "spar"with him. I did well, though like I said earlier, if it were a real fight that would be different. In the next few years I then started to show up at his school occasionally as a guest to spar with his students. I credit him with inspiring me with the intensity and rage to train and condition like a freakish animal preparing for a world title fight, and with instilling large amounts of confidence in myself. Think about it-- those are valuable characteristics and they are hard to cultivate in people. But he could do it.

So- in a nutshell: Abbate is for real, he is skilled in formal kung fu as taught by Tsai, and nobody, under any circumstances, should insult this man.

I met Gangi during high school- early 1980's. I had been training on weekends with my Kempo teachers, occasionally visiting Cobra Kai, training with a mixture of my brothers and my friends, and I decided to call on Gangi's school because it was near my house. Like Abbate, Gangi was very friendly and personal in welcoming me to his school and he invited me to train there whenever I wanted. He did not even ask for money, but I voluntarily made donations anyway. He did not ask me to remove my black belt or to stand in the back or anything like that. His school was entirely different than Abbate's in that Gangi was teaching in a more typically safe environment - (i.e., light contact sparring, lots of pads, light self-defense.) Gangi spent more time with techniques and combinations, and less on conditioning. I think his goals were to provide an enjoyable class for men, women and children in which people did not bleed, suffer fractures, or quit out of fear. He did not teach traditional karate or kung fu in a way I understand they should be taught. He did not teach forms when I was there. It was pretty much point sparring or improvised self-defense. Like Abbate, Gangi appeared to be more knowledgable and capable than what he taught his students. On a rare occasion when class was really small one time, Gangi showed me some forms that were really nice. I presume he learned and practiced those forms under his instructor- Master Borkowski (never met him). I heard Borkowksi is the real deal and trains hard, trains traditionally etc. I was let down that Gangi did not drill his students on precise technique, harsh conditioning, and forms. But who am I to question his teaching decisions? Look how long he has been successful at making a living teaching. We all know that is not easy. He has many current and former students who are happy with what he teaches. Gangi himself is very skilled and can fight quite well. When I would visit his school on Wednesdays we had two hours of non-stop sparring and- with his black belts and with himself, Gangi let us fight heavy or full contact (with headgear and gloves).

Both Abbate and Gangi are trained and skilled in more formal styles than what they were teaching when I knew them. For whatever reasons, they deliberately chose to teach the way they did and it is obvious that they achieved their own successes.

I personally have spent the last 15 years doing nothing but kata, makiwara, and conditioning 5 days per week. I also had the good fortune of learning the Yang style Taiji form about 8 years ago and I still practice it daily. I am currently in contact with my Wushu master about more Taiji lessons. That type of training works for me and, combined with conditioning and makiwara, should adequately provide a self-defense capability. And I haven't had any bleeding or broken bones in a long time. I cannot stress the makiwara enough-- perhaps a more experienced Gongfu practitioner can comment regarding whether or not there is a Chinese equivalent to Okinwan makiwara training. I would appreciate the education.

Peace,

Larry C

[Oso]

did ya'll see the hotties in the black belt picture gallary????

[Mas Judt]

I've heard about these guys all the way from my earliest days in the MA scene - they were known as tournament schools - which in those days was forms and point or semi-contact - although semi-contact at St.Viators gym was anything but, and worse in the parking lot.

Nothing to add really. I knew Johnny Tsai in passing. He was always very friendly when I met him at different functions. He had a notorious reputation, and frankly that made him more entertaining. He taught a mix of Northern Shaolin and kenpo. His son Kenny was a terror in the flyweight division and had an ongoing rivalry with a classmate of mine.

So, if these guys are doing thier thing, good for them. But I have no idea what it is.

[Royal Dragon]

First, I would like to comment on the Makiwra. I don't likethe training because I feel it is too brutal on the knuckles. In think the Chinese Mung bean bag is a much better thing to hit becasue there is a moveable medium spreading the blow out over the entire surface. I belive this also strengthens a greater area than the makiwra does.

Honestly. I remeber the Iron Plam bag Abbate had at the River Grove school, and I feel you are better off hanging that on the wall and hitting that instead, over a Makwira board.

As for Abbate, I know he was trained in some sort of Vietnamiese snake style if I remember right. I was not there long, but the training made a lasting impression on me and I do wish I could have continued.

As for not teaching you the goods, or holding back, I would guess the opposite happened. Forms were originally for the teachers to organise thier curriculem. Learning to fight and use the techniques in the forms were what was originally taught first. Learning the Form Abbate's way meant you REALLY learned the form, even if you never got the final choreography of it.

I don't have any doubt of his authenticity, but I am curious as to his history and all. When I was there we were learning Wing Chun as an intro style from Rocco Lombardo. But it was clear Master Abbate had his own system to teach after that. I would like to know what that system was, and where he learned it. I vaugly remember it came from a Chinese teacher, and was some sort of Veitnamese snake style, but I really don't know the details. I do know Master Tsai came in much later in his carreer, and he was already a top level martial artist by the time Tsai came on the scene.

Last I saw master Abbate, he had been very sick, and had lost a LOT of weight. I hear he is better now though. I am not sure where he is now, but if your history with him is as significant as you say, I would sugjest you find him, and visit.

As for the topic of my post, I am very curious how Ganji fits into this whole thing now. If he is claiming rank in Abbate's system, then how did he get that?

[MasterKiller]

I lasted at Cobra Kai for less than two years before I got a fractured nose that needed surgery (Abbate himself palm-striked me at my blue sash test). He apologized and felt bad, and I eventually accepted it. In fact, a few years later when I was 16 he hosted my Okinawan Kempo black belt test at his school.

He fractured the nose of a 12 or 13 year-old kid?

What a guy.

[Royal Dragon]

I wasn't really looking to discuss Abbate really, I was just curious about Ganji's school as it appears to be some sort of kempo school masqueradeing as Kung Fu. I was wondering if anyone had any first hand experiance with them as I am not really planning to sign up for lessons to find out (I have enough Tai Tzu on my plate as it is).

I am really just more curious.

The Legends of Steven Abbate are a whole other topic.

[larryc]

I figured that lengthy book I wrote would trigger quick responses...thanks, guys.

Mas Jdut- funny you mention St Viator gym-- those fights were after my time as a thug and after I moved away from the Chicago area so I never got to indulge, but I went and watched some when I visited because my brother stays in touch with the Chicago martial arts scene. I really liked Jimmy Zibilski's fighters (from Z martial arts) at those St Viator things because they seemed to show up prepared in terms of conditioning. There's another Gangi connection-- one of Gangi's black belts who I used to throw leather with - told me Jimmy Z was at one time a student of Gangi's very early in his training. He introduced me to Jimmy Z. From running into him occasionally, my impression is that Jimmy Z is a totally friendly, standup guy who is passionate about boxing and kickboxing. He had me over to train one day back in something like 1992 and I got to scrap with him and his guys. He's a great fighter himself, and fighters he trains are usually well prepared. I hear that his brother teaches something more traditional, though I have no firsthand experience with him. I presume he is good if he is Jimmy's brother. My active period was in the early and mid 1980's -- the full contact tourneys were in Rockford (Bad Brad Hefton was the local hero) and in Franklin Part at Frank Salemi's kickboxing club. You said you thought Abbate and Gangi ran tournament schools--- true re Gangi, but like i wrote yesterday, Abbate's students did not train in any way for point fighting or forms.

Hey Royal Dragon- thanks for offering your thoughts on makiwara. Just to clarify and for the purpose of discussion and not debate- it sounds like you might misunderstand makiwara based on your saying to hang the iron palm bag on the wall. The iron palm is hand conditioning. The makiwara is developing the entire body in the motion of your punches and kicks. Two different purposes, though the makiwara side-effect is some hand conditioning.

The grotesque knuckle-deformation you allude to is a clear sign someone does it wrong. I have friend in shotokan who made his knuckle look weird and what i found is that he cheaply and hastily hung up one of those magazine-order brick-like contraptions on a wall that does not give when he hits it. WRONG. The makiwara is supposed to flex when you hit it. Not too much flex, but enough so you are forced to plant your feet, twist your hips, and really let fly to make the thing flex. It flexes because it is a board sticking up out of the ground. The pad is just hard enough to hurt a until you get used to it, but not wimpy soft like most heavy bags which would do nothing to train you to hit with the isolated knuckle (or to precisely aim at a small target). When I started years ago I could not hit it too hard without feeling a bruise in the knuckle, so I hit it softly and gradually built up. The past few years I hit it as hard as I can- many times per day- no pain, no odd-looking hands, no injuries (I play guitar well - 30 years). I filled a large plastic tub with 220 pounds of contrete mix and I anchored into it 3 2x4's (6 feet, 5 feet, 4 feet) all sandwiched together and connected to each other at the very bottom with the 6 footer facing me. I attached three of those canvas rectangular makiwara pads at three different heights on the 6 footer. I placed the contraption against the concrete wall in the garage and voila- this thing has held up for years. When you hit the pad, the three boards flex and the tub of concrete is braced against the wall so it won't migrate when you hit it. Try it, you'll thank me.

So really, I was asking if the Chinese arts have something that you train on like you would a makiwara where the thing gives enough when you hit it so you can really sink a full strike, kick or block into it with your entire body (as opposed to standing above a table in a non-fighting stance and dropping hands on an iron palm bag).

Abbate never mentioned a "Vietnamese snake style" when I knew him. Someone in this thread posted earlier a history of Abbate's style from an old Cobra Kai manual Abbate used to give his students. I read it and do recall that is what Abbate told us when I was there. So re-read that-- that's the way I heard it, too. I really think his kung fu started with Tsai. Before that, I think he was in boxing and either karate or tkd. Go check out Tsai's school. Someone there can tell you about Abbate or maybe introduce you to him. If you're lucky you can train with him. It's a rare and valuable opportunity to learn from someone who has done the things he has done, and for so many years.

Royal Dragon- you asked again how does Gangi fit in to Cobra Kai. As I explained, they did not train together and i doubt that they would because they are so different in many ways. He and Abbate know each other from being in the profession at the same time in the same geographic location. Both being friendly guys, they probably say hello to each other at tournaments. At least they did at one tournament in 1983-- I was fighting in the Letuli (Fred and Tom - big names in the karate world) Illinois Karate Championships and my opponent and I got hot-headed and way out of control (I was 18 - forgive me). Abbate was the center judge and he grabbed me by the back of my belt and collar and started pulling me off of my opponent (we were on the ground trading punches) and he shouted at Gangi to "control your fighter or I'll knock him out." Gangi said "he's not my fighter...go ahead and try to knock him out" (Thanks for the support, Joe. And thanks, Steve, for not knocking me out!). I ended up with stitches in my forehead - not from Abbate, but from my opponent's elbow, and a nice second place plaque that hangs on the wall in my parents' basement. What an embarassing display of poor sportsmanship and immaturity. Someone should have revoked my black belt. Hey- I was 18 and full of testosterone. The other guy and I did apologize to each other and he insisted I keep the second place plaque even though I did not want it.

You said Gangi claimed rank in Cobra Kai. I don't know the facts, but I see Gangi uses the word "associate black belt" when referrring to Cobra Kai. I THINK that is like what I got. When Abbate let my Kempo instructors test me for black belt at Abbate's Cobra Kai school, after the evening's events ended Abbate presented me with a Cobra Kai Associate Black Belt Certificate. He gave it to me without any discussion and, quite honestly, I did not view it as him awarding me any rank in his school or system. (I saved it, of course.) I viewed it as his way of professionally acknowledging that I earned a black belt from a school/instructor that he considers reputable and valid. In fact, after having been a student in Cobra Kai a few years earlier, and participating in the testing of two of Abbate's black sashes, I truly doubt Abbate would simply hand out black belt ranks to anyone, including me. The 3 day long black sash test at Cobra Kai was a hellish ordeal that nearly put these guys in the hospital from a combination of injuries and physical exhaustion. It would be so unfair to these guys if he simply handed it out.

That raises a point of view I'd like to voice: I think too many people, especially Americans and certain Japanese organizations, place far too much importance on rank and titles. It has no purpose other than arrogance and ego- or a way to generate revenue if you run a martial arts school. Look, a true master of martial arts should have the discipline and humility to treat a 50 year black belt and a 5 day beginner, a CEO and a janitor, a priest and a prostitute, with the same amount of kindness, dignity and RESPECT. You should hide everyone's belts so everyone treats each other with the same amount of respect. All people are created equal and deserve respect. All of us have faults. And this calling yourself "Shihan" is a trend that only popped up recently and now it looks like every schmuck who runs a school in a strip mall calls himself Shihan. Please. The overabuse of the term has now made it mean nothing. And then comparing styles...whose is more authentic...whose lineage is pure...who can memorize and recite names...how many forms do you know...blah...blah... What does that prove other than you should have gotten good grades in history?

Judge a man by what he does, not what he says he can do. How hard does he train? How often? How long has he trained? Have you watched his form and technique? Is he out of shape or well conditioned? Have you seen him fight? How well does he treat others?

I heard Abbate was sick and I sent a card to him and my friend contacted him. I live out of state, so it's hard to get around to visiting him. I will sometime say hello to him again and maybe let him know some web bloggers were curious about him. While serving in the Vietnam War he was involved in a particularly hairy event that left him hospitalized. The articles I read about it and his re-telling of it indicate he had to engage in hand-to-hand combat. He said that while laying in his hospital bed he made a decision to teach to others the same skills that saved his life that day. He made good on his promise. He was not selfish-- he did not run a commercially appealing school that drew dozens of students to keep him in the money. He had only a few students willing to stick it out and he had a regular day job to pay the bills. Cobra Kai was not about money for him--- it was about sharing this life-saving gift. Some of us learned not just to fight, but to be confident and hard-working. Don't believe negative things about this man. He's a war hero and a giving teacher.

[larryc]

Dragon man- you said: I wasn't really looking to discuss Abbate really, I was just curious about Ganji's school as it appears to be some sort of kempo school masqueradeing as Kung Fu. I was wondering if anyone had any first hand experiance with them as I am not really planning to sign up for lessons to find out (I have enough Tai Tzu on my plate as it is).
********
Gangi is a really nice guy. Just go ask him if you can watch and tell him your concerns. He'll be cool if you decide his school is not for you. Gangi is not teaching traditional kempo, for sure, and I doubt he teaches traditional kung fu. He was and probably still is teaching a hybrid system that he chooses. I think he even says so on his website. When I was there there were no forms and much of it was point sparring. The self-defense drills seemed too padded and light for me.

If you want to learn a traditional system, and I think everyone should, I recommend you find a WuShu school in your area. It's all forms, but what acrobatic and explosive moves you will have! You can always supplement fighting and self-defense skills by joining a boxing, judo or mma club, or getting guys like Gangi or Z's to let you come in a fight. But if you do your forms with intensity and do strength training, that's all you'll need to defend yourself.

Hey- Master Killer, you asked
"He fractured the nose of a 12 or 13 year-old kid?"-- yeah - i was 13 and it is absurd. If I did not know the man as well as i do i would say to myself that his skill must be lousy if he cannot keep from accidentally smashing some kid's face. but he hit everyone that hard--deliberately and regularly---and other noses broke...and other injuries occurred. and he is not the only one who dished it out. we (the students) injured each other, too. i broke other people's noses and ribs on a few occasions. it was insane and unnecessary. but as a teenager it seems cool. BE CAREFUL WHO YOU SEND YOUR KIDS TO FOR MARTIAL ARTS LESSONS.

It's unnecessary to train like that. I think you can become a terrific fighter if you train full contact no pads- but strike only to the blue or red dot painted on the tkd chest protector. Don't worry, you'll still be able to hit a guy in the head if you get into a real fight.

[Mas Judt]

"So really, I was asking if the Chinese arts have something that you train on like you would a makiwara where the thing gives enough when you hit it so you can really sink a full strike, kick or block into it with your entire body (as opposed to standing above a table in a non-fighting stance and dropping hands on an iron palm bag)."

CMA does - bags that go on the wall. You are obviously very into your JMA, put your post shows a very limited understanding of this kind of training. No offense, but don't assume.

[Mas Judt]

"That raises a point of view I'd like to voice: I think too many people, especially Americans and certain Japanese organizations, place far too much importance on rank and titles. It has no purpose other than arrogance and ego- or a way to generate revenue if you run a martial arts school. Look, a true master of martial arts should have the discipline and humility to treat a 50 year black belt and a 5 day beginner, a CEO and a janitor, a priest and a prostitute, with the same amount of kindness, dignity and RESPECT. You should hide everyone's belts so everyone treats each other with the same amount of respect. All people are created equal and deserve respect. All of us have faults. And this calling yourself "Shihan" is a trend that only popped up recently and now it looks like every schmuck who runs a school in a strip mall calls himself Shihan. Please. The overabuse of the term has now made it mean nothing. And then comparing styles...whose is more authentic...whose lineage is pure...who can memorize and recite names...how many forms do you know...blah...blah... What does that prove other than you should have gotten good grades in history?"


Well put. Unfortunately this kind of thing is just the way it is, it seems...

[Royal Dragon]

Mas Judt,
yup, that is basically what i was refering to.