Reply to hfy Meng from Chu Sifu

[sihing]

I don't know if I would call it common, but there definitely is a pretty sizeable sub-set out there who train this way.


As far as fighting on the ground being good or bad, that is 100% situation dependent. In some situations, it is easily your best choice (assuming you know what you are doing there). In others, it is your worst choice. And in still others you don't have a choice in the first place.

Agreed again, sometimes there is no choice, so those with experience there will definetly have greater chance for success.


I imagine that there are MMA players that don't compete and use the venue to help them prepare for the street when needed. Personal motivations vary for each of us in the MA.

James

[sihing]

Hey James,
It was a joke.......
I guess I better cancel my gig at Yuk Yuk's

The unknown can be scary, but it really shouldn't be. It's a part of life. If there were no surprises in life it would be pretty boring. N'est pas?
I agree that being prepared mentally is a good way to avoid being caught.

Hi Bill,

Acutally I think you have a great sense of humour..

Regarding fights and violent confrontations, the unknown factor IMO is scary. In life it can make things more interesting and I agree that if surprises were not a part of the journey it would be a boring one at that.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programing, sorry for the hijack guys..

J

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's the type of hijacking that I, for one, don't mind one bit...

(This whole thread was going nowhere but down - right from the beginning).

...................

As to "surprises"....one of the most profound yet simple martial arts "maxims", if you will...is something William Cheung used to say upon occasion back in the day:

"If You Haven't Seen It Before - It's Probably Going To Hit You."

(Now apply this to the Royce Gracie phenomenon back in the 90's and you see this "principle" working very clearly...as well as Ali's boxing style in the 60's-70's...Bruce Lee's lightening footwork/kicking/trapping/5 angles of attack skills, etc.)

........................

As for this statement:

"I imagine that there are MMA players that don't compete and use the venue to help them prepare for the street when needed. Personal motivations vary for each of us in the MA." (James)


***THAT'S exactly the approach to martial arts I, personally, decided to take some time ago. Although I've entered some students in comps on a few occasions (and they did well)...I have always trained myself and them for street-effectiveness first and foremost. Like was said - it's all about one's individual motivations.

[sihing]

That's the type of hijacking that I, for one, don't mind one bit...

(This whole thread was going nowhere but down - right from the beginning).

...................

As to "surprises"....one of the most profound yet simple martial arts "maxims", if you will...is something William Cheung used to say upon occasion back in the day:

"If You Haven't Seen It Before - It's Probably Going To Hit You."

(Now apply this to the Royce Gracie phenomenon back in the 90's and you see this "principle" working very clearly...as well as Ali's boxing style in the 60's-70's...Bruce Lee's lightening footwork/kicking/trapping/5 angles of attack skills, etc.)

........................

As for this statement:

"I imagine that there are MMA players that don't compete and use the venue to help them prepare for the street when needed. Personal motivations vary for each of us in the MA." (James)


***THAT'S exactly the approach to martial arts I, personally, decided to take some time ago. Although I've entered some students in comps on a few occasions (and they did well)...I have always trained myself and them for street-effectiveness first and foremost. Like was said - it's all about one's individual motivations.

Back a few years ago I would have critized you for a statement like that. Today I've learned that Martial Arts is a very individual thing. Wing Chun IMO is not a fighting style, but rather a training system, meant to develop certain attributes that can only HELP you achieve success in a physical confrontation. Nothing or no one, except for yourself, can guarantee 100% success in combat. All WC can do, like any MA, is help increase your chances. For me, I've never worried about street confrontations, simply for that fact that I choose to use other methods to deal with it, which first and foremost is AVOIDANCE. If one happens then I deal with it as it comes, by first using my wits, rather than my fists....

James

[Matrix]

Regarding fights and violent confrontations, the unknown factor IMO is scary. In life it can make things more interesting and I agree that if surprises were not a part of the journey it would be a boring one at that.

Well, I guess that's another dimension for training, beyond the physical attributes and skills. We talk about being centered and balanced in our physical model. I think those qualities are also equally important in our emotions. To remain calm and stay within ourselves.

Let's face it, all we can control in a given situation is ourselves. If we are overcome by fear or emotion we have lost our center as well. The emotions actually restrict our physical ability. We have given the opponent control, and by extension, lessen our control before the first move has been made. I know this is easier said then done, but it's something to keep in mind.

[Matrix]

Actually surprise is not a skill, it just is what it is, otherwise referred to as the "unknown".

When I saw your comment that "Surprise works 100 times out of 100." I thought that if something is 100% successful, we should use it.

Your response that "surprise is not a skill" reminded me of the classic scenes in the Pink Panther movies where Kato would ambush the Inspector to test his ability to react to sneak attacks.....

[sihing]

When I saw your comment that "Surprise works 100 times out of 100." I thought that if something is 100% successful, we should use it.

Your response that "surprise is not a skill" reminded me of the classic scenes in the Pink Panther movies where Kato would ambush the Inspector to test his ability to react to sneak attacks.....

That's exactly the effect. Surprise works all the time. It's the one that you didn't see that knocks you out, so the one not seen is the surprise. That is not to always mean that the fight is over because you have surprised them with a application of an technique, but when you hit someone or take them down that in itself is success, that can lead to victory.


"Well, I guess that's another dimension for training, beyond the physical attributes and skills." IMO, developing the individual physical skills is the basics only. In fighting, ultimatley IMO you have to master timing, distance control and perception (the ability to read your opponents movements visually). Your body should react appropiately if you can develop these things to a high level. If I see you throwing a haymaker and I have the physical abilities already within me, I can stop hit you easy. No need to block or recover. Bruce is the prime example of this.

gotta run...

James

[Matrix]

IMO, developing the individual physical skills is the basics only. In fighting, ultimatley IMO you have to master timing, distance control and perception (the ability to read your opponents movements visually). Your body should react appropiately if you can develop these things to a high level. If I see you throwing a haymaker and I have the physical abilities already within me, I can stop hit you easy. No need to block or recover.

What I'm trying to say is that emotions can short-circuit your physical skills that have been trained in a non-threatening environment. Shallow breathing, high adrenaline and stress can kill relaxation and rob you of mobility, control and power that you need.

[sihing]

What I'm trying to say is that emotions can short-circuit your physical skills that have been trained in a non-threatening environment. Shallow breathing, high adrenaline and stress can kill relaxation and rob you of mobility, control and power that you need.

That's why the intensity and realism of the training has to always increase. And also putting yourself out there in strange environments, sparring and exposing yourself to different fighters and styles helps.

Always remember that the stress and adrenaline dump is not ONLY effecting you, but your opponent too. To many times we only concern ourselves with what is happening to us, but really it is happening to the other guy as well. So it makes sense to believe that the one with the better training and exposure to combat would come out on top in most cases. Of course nothing is guaranteed in combat, you just have to do the best you can, dealing with it as it comes.

James

[Matrix]

Always remember that the stress and adrenaline dump is not ONLY effecting you, but your opponent too. To many times we only concern ourselves with what is happening to us, but really it is happening to the other guy as well. So it makes sense to believe that the one with the better training and exposure to combat would come out on top in most cases.

James,
From my point of view, whether the opponent is stressed emotionally or not is inconscequential. I cannot count on that being the case. Why would I waste my time playing mind games with myself ?
I only concern myself with what is happening to me, because that is all I can control. The opponent will do or not do whatever he decides to do. I want to stay within myself and bring the situation to a rapid conclusion.

[Liddel]

I like the POV on surprise and it brings to mind some things ive tried to prepare me for surprise attacks.

(being smacked in the head when your not looking is popular down the main drag of town where i live)

Ive been shown different ways of training and dealing with the surprise element, from my buddy who is a Personal Protection Officer.
Body guards for the most part when dealing with threats get taken by surprise but thats the crux of the job, being able to deal with surprise H2H attacks.

There are several ways you can train to improve your chances, here's one senario ive done with friends -

Get a partner to attack you with one action from a angle outside your eye line, be it a kick or a punch. Now the key to realism is you are ONLY allowed to retaliate AFTER the action has landed.

Of course your partner has to appreciate this is just training and you dont want to injure yourself so hitting with 100 % isnt advised (my partners are all bigger and stonger) but a forceful stunning power is recommended for realsim and to prepare ones body and mind.

After you feel comfortable with the single action senario, get your partner to give two actions, although you only have to wait for ONE to land before you can act.

once youve got used to the surprise attack senario you can even add sparring after the initial blows doing three min rounds etc - just use your mind...

Does anyone else do specific trainnig drills for surprise attacks ?
If so, how or what do you do ?

[Wayfaring]

Does anyone else do specific trainnig drills for surprise attacks ?
If so, how or what do you do ?

The concept we train is "shadow" vs. "shape". "Shadow" training would involve covering gates and sweeping space based upon NOT being able to see the attack coming. "Shape" would involve targeting what you can see.

[lui1828]

from an earlier post:
First he starts off and bad mouths Moy Yat and Lee Moy Shan both more than once, and very disgracefully at that. Using words like 'greedy', refering to one as a con man, calling them lyers, and getting even more personal: " At that time Lee was embroiled in another business, an affair, a crumbling marriage, and other things"
This is slanderous IMO. An affair? Is there proof?


from me:
I not sure where the slander is. I too was conned by Lee Moy Shan (Douglas lee) into joining his special students association for $1,000.00

Lee had a school on 23 st NYC. I joined the school when Vinny Thomas was studying the second form. I will say that Vinny was a real gentleman at all times.
He never popped you on the nose during chi sau to prove he was the top dog.
At that I Lee has just gotton married to a chinese girl. I'am sure she was still a student at Baruch college, but in any case she was only 20 year old or so.

Later Lee did get a divorce and married a white women. You will have to ask his ex-wife if Lee was cheating during his marriage.

Lee was engaged in other endevors. At that time he was trying to open a food take out place. He had a mobile cart on the street in which he sold egg rolls.

He was also trying to get a acupunture license via self study.

so bascially for my $1,000 Lee taught me the Three Stooges eye poke.

All the other times he was not at the school.

Are there any other Lee special students out there ?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The Three Stooges eye poke"....

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

My God....you've just made my day.

(Not that I ever had anything against Douglas Lee, mind you...but that was laugh-out-loud funny)...

[drleungjohn]

Hi Lui828- I am an old LMS student-Who are you exactly,your real name please maybe I know you-I came to the school right after the move to Chambers street upstairs,so I know pretty much most or all of the oldtimers-