piercinghammer:
Roger, hammer, I copied that. Although I did quote your exact words.I mentioned that I did not believe that Grand Master
Chang had "much interest" in iron palm
Iron palm (all 4 levels; though some teach 2 etc), correctly taught, practiced (this includes using a properly formulated medicine, which is *THE* key to success in IP), and applied, is not a low level skill at all.
Huge topic, though. But there's a reason many masters of old considered open-handed techniques to be among the most advanced skills a fighter could have at his or her disposal.
Many would disagree also with the implication of the way you seem to be defining the word "conditioning" (of Chang's body & forearms, for instance) in the context of the Old Ways of "Classical" Chinese MA training.
Also worth noting that the protection provided by Iron Vest can't be penetrated with beginner's palm; you have to have advanced level to do that---IF you had correct training on the authentic Vest (very internal, generally requiring herbal assist, ie, the little "dynamite pills" taken for the first 100 days, primarily cleansing of a specialized variety...ie you ain't gonna find these on any health food store shelf, even one in Chinatown) in the first place.
Chang was highly skilled in IP (and Ong was no slouch) and used it to win many of his challenge matches (yes, I know some websites state to the contrary--that he trained his elbows instead of his palms, for example--but according to everything I know that is not accurate) quickly. He passed this training (at least some of the most crucial aspects; maybe more, can't say with authority) on to Chicoine, as well as his own formula. Chicoine uses Chang's herbs, not Ong's; but I ain't going to get into that here.
Not going to comment on what Green Dragon's formula has in common with Chang's except that I would bet Allen has a few sources for ingredients of his own; and that I'd be highly skeptical of P. Chan's being the real thing. That's just an educated guess, though. But anyone who's seen their tape on Palm knows that Allen adds in some preparatory exercises that Chicoine doesn't cover (at least on the tape).
I also doubt either Chang, Allen, or Chicoine are using formulae which include superfluous ingredients. Likely, they just know more about what Iron Palm is supposed to do than the, if I may, "average" (maybe mainstream is a better word) kung fu student or instructor does. A *lot* more!
Among several other things, correct medicine will actually draw the chi out into the palms for use in fighting as well as for general health purposes. It also hardens the bones of the hands to an extremely unusual degree; they become very hard to injure.
Anyone who hasn't done some serious work on the Teet Sao set---Green Dragon does sell it, but I don't think it matters where you get it as long as you can; GD teaches it properly, though, whereas some others may not (ie this is NOT an ad for GD tapes but an advocacy for authentic Chinese MA training)---would be well advised to give it a whirl. It's a very beginning level iron palm training set. If you do it daily (after you learn it thoroughly) it will also draw the chi to the palms after enough reps over enough time (varies with the student, the state of his/her chi at the time of starting, eg) but without medicine etc; thereby giving one an idea of what true Palm training can do...and why it isn't a "low level" skill or form of training at all!
Huge, huge topic, piercinghammer...Tying in with what I said in my last post in the GD Studios thread about most students (and instructors) not really knowing what people like Chang were really capable of.
You can have really good success in Vest or Stone Warrior etc, though, without the use of herbs; whereas they are absolutely crucial to getting the results in Palm that a CMA student was historically supposed to expect---and get.
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