it's a great question, and not at all taken as an insult (see, it IS possible to inquire critically about something without being a toad about it) - i actually spent all day thinking about the answer, because, a bit to my surprise, I hadn't actually articulated it all that clearly to myself, what I definatively mean by "filler" - it was just a gut response to my personal experience - in other words, I know what I meant, but hadn't actually thought it out fully;
so, here's what i think: as far as principles of fighting go, I think that TCMA has the right idea in many cases: things like jamming the opponet up, shutting down / controling the centerline, how to stick and follow in order to close the gap, different types of focrce generation in context of proper biomechanical principles: these are all things that I think TCMA has going for it; on the flip side, I think that the way a lot of the specific techniques are trainined is antithetical to those above ideas which, in general, are predicated on working against a "live" opponent; forms, and the sequences within the forms, lack the context specific parameters in terms of force generation, points of balance, timing, etc. because they are now all internally generated - it's like having a conversation with yourself, wherein you inevitably come out sounding like a genious to yourself; also, the content is questionable: for example, repetition of basic moves in so-called "advanced" forms - there really is no point to that - if you are trying to communicate / teach an "advanced" principle, then why not focus on the exclusively? why the need to put in the basic stuff that you've already worked to death? of course, if you didn't have repetition like that, TCMA forms would be a lot shorter and take much less time to learn...filler
ok, let the insults fly about how I am advocating not practicing basics any more once you are of an "advanced" level...
well, it was mostly basics - not a lot of complicated stuff: staff specifically was all about cutting the angle, sticking, redirection and quickly closing the gap often after whacking someone in the fingers / hand with the staff - very "boring", straight-forward stuff - actually reminded me a lot of western foil fencing...empty hand was the same deal - very direct;
it's funny, because CTS's MO was to do with forms exactly what I talked about above - those sukers could go on forever, and a lot of it was the same old sequences separating a handful of "unique" moves; at the same time, his apps were very direct, and he didn't show a lot of flowery contrived stuff; unfortunately I never sat down and had a conversation with him about the purpose of forms in relation to fighting (lack of Chinese / maturity) - I really wonder what he'd have said about this discussion, I think it would have been interesting...Dave, any insights here?
"why the need to put in the basic stuff that you've already worked to death?"
I've alway heard you can't practice the basics too much and you're never to good to practice basics.
I think the reason the advanced sets have basics as "filler" is to force the advanced peeps to continuue practicing them and not get sidetracked by centering too much on the advanced stuff.
You know there will be students that will never go back to the basics without being forced to do so.
ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!!!
try to follow the logic: if you are going to teachan "advanced" principle, then teach it - don't pad it out with repetition of stuff that the person already has profciency in; I mean, the whole idea of "forcing" someone to practice basics is silly - if you are motivated to succeed as a fighter / MA-ist, you are going to practice basics a lot, all the time - which is why when working on something advanced, there is no point in adding in basic stuff, beacause you are practicing that anyway and it just takes focus away from what you are trying to now learn; as for forcing, let's be honest - how exactly can you force someone to do anything? maybe back in ol' China you could, but these days, if you no like, you leave and find somewhere else to train
so, let me state unequivocally that basics are good, important and need to be contantly drilled in order to deepen one's level of understanding overall; but like anything, they have their place, and used to fill in gaps btw advanced techs is not one of them;
As for the forms being full of the same basic filler, that just you guys.
Sorry, but thats not my experience and thats probably why we have such different views of them. Thats one thing about our Sung Pai ,the advanced shaolin sets, and the our monkey sets, very diverse. The level of difficulty and content only go up. If your form is indeed just repetitions of the same stuff then by all means do then until you've had enough.
Domo oregato, Mr. Roboto. If memory serves your only video bout had you showing really crappy token standup that lead to grappling.
Last edited by SifuAbel; 10-23-2006 at 06:46 PM.
Answer a simple question, there are TONS of successful fighters who don't do forms at all
There are champion forms players who have been HUMILIATED in fighting... the #1 southern forms stylist in the entire US for YEARS got Ko'd in like a minute when he finally fought San Shou
IN fact, the number of people who do forms and can also fight is VERY SMALL, and they'd all be better fighters if they didn't waste time doing forms
Forms do have one good purpose:
They keep pretend practitioners in their bubbles, giving them the self-esteem boost that comes with thinking they can fight for real... and there's hardly ever anything wrong with a good boost of self-esteem.