TUF Season 4 question

[Green Cloud]

cjurakpt.........

OHHH

[cjurakpt]

On any given day here I could point out a pile of statements that demonstrate a fundamental disconnection with the reality of practical application


How many people here either have competed full contact or train people who have competed full contact?

How many CMA schools have students fighting in MMA?

Where are the CMA fighters?

TCMA is far too deadly to use in the ring; TCMA practitioners have nothing to prove, since they know they can fight if need be; MMA is a sport and sport fighting has rules, which will never make it appropriate for street use

ok, I got the standard answers out of the way for everyone; now, can someone please actually answer the question?

With all the talk here about "battle fields" and "weapons" isn't it funny to note that when Adam Hsu tried to introduce weapons sparring into the national events almost no one wanted to do it? The guys who won big trophies doing weapons forms didn't walk across the room and win medals in weapons sparring

Chris Jurak did both filipino stick fighting and CMA weapons sparring, also a little western fencing if I remember correctly... maybe he'd care to comment on what he found when crossing weapons with some of the "big names" in CMA forms

because there has been no effort to maintain weapons useage in TCMA, a lot of superfluous technique has emerged / persisted; actual weapon sparring is fairly boring: there's not a lot of variability because your margin of error is low - a mistake that would get you hit by your opponent in empty hand can be brushed aside if it's not taken full on, whereas if you get hit "lightly" by a stick or slightly stabbed by a sword, it's a different thing entirely

I'd say that about the most effective TCMA weapon stuff I ever learned was the BASIC staff stuff i did with CTS, because it didn't leave any holes in your defense when you changed ranges, by jamming / stick to your opponents weapon as you did so; this principle is also applicable to the straight sword I've learned, and seems to be consistent with non-sport western style fencing as well...

[SifuAbel]

It just seems to me every time people talk about things like forms or foot/stance work its either that they think in sigular terms that this practice or that practice is all that is done instead of it being part of the larger whole or they are just being lazy and don't want to do the work.

[lkfmdc]

Gus, at this point I am no longer sure whether you just project this crap or actually believe it?

You accepting challengers? The only challenge I remember was Harold Clark in the park in Chinatown. You declined...

You just knocked out some MMA fighter? WHO? Name him. You're on the Island gus, go to the Serra brothers and knock out one of them

I actually find much of what you do and say offensive to our teacher's memory. Gus, you were in your mid 20's or later when you met Chan Tai San. He didn't raise you! You were hardly an orphan.

Chan Tai San didn't teach Pankration. Furthermore, the monkey you do is still the stuff you and Chris Bruce made up from watching "mad monkey" kung fu movies. We both know you barely remember the forms that Chan Tai San taught.

Your school caters to what I consider the lowest image of CMA, pretty forms, temple secrets, bad kung fu movies

The only time I've ever seen your students fight was in Atlantic City. They didn't do antying resembling CTS Kung Fu, it looked like bad point fighting.

You claim a black belt in Jiu Jitsu, never mention you got a black belt in stand up eccletic "silent flute" jujitsu back when you were a teenager, all wrist locks and "self defense" jujitsu, it in no way qualifies you to discuss BJJ. The fact you say "it's all teh same" shows how little grasp you have of what BJJ is really about

Three days you spent with Huk Plantas doesn't qualify you as a stick fighting expert either

It disgusts me to think that anyone associates me with what you do and teach. From now on, you are completely ignored. TO me you don't exist

[Knifefighter]

That's just absurd you turd,,, how do you know we don't compete in mixed MMA

I'm pretty sure no kung fu guy who posted on this thread has fought MMA.

But you can correct me if I am wrong.

Are you saying you have fought in these events?

I'd be curious to know which ones and how you did. If you really have done some of these events, I'll definitely respect your opinion a bit more.

Dave, Chris- you guys are training bros with this guy. Has he fought MMA?

[Green Cloud]

I feel inclined to agree with Dave - I think a lot of TCMA is "filler" that has minimal bearing on actual fighting; furthermore, in terms of building fighting skill, the entire practice of forms is useless; as far as partner training, even two-person drills and sets are limited in use, since when you know what the other guy is going to do, you can't really learn the skill you are practicing "in context": it's fine at the beginning to "get the idea" of the technique in question, but once you've got the motor plan reasonably in place, you have to augment the degree of contextual interference pretty early on (e.g. - unpredictable resistance from the partner) in order to avoid training an innapropriate response; the problem is, once you do that, people start developing fighting skill much more quickly than if you have them waste their time doing stance training - which means that the sifu also has to stay on top of his game constantly to keep from getting beat by his students, or he has to admit (gasp) that he's not necessarilly able to beat his students, but that he certainly can train them very effectively...

TCMA developed within a particular cultural context that, to a large extent, no longer exists - that means a lot of the traditional BS associated with it isn't going to act as an in context buffer anymore, so when tested in a rigorous setting, it can only stand on its intrinsic merits

excuse me Chris but now you guys just figure out what I was saying all along. You know back in the day you all used to gang up on me when I tried to offer MMA solutions. And If I'm correct you and i sparred on several occasions you know what I mean

[Knifefighter]

Well, I guess lkfmdc just answered my questions. Thanks for verifying what I have suspected all along.

[cjurakpt]

Form work is usless, soooooooo were did you learn the bulk of your skills, a magazine?

I learned the bulk of my skills by sparring with resisting opponents with as little restriction as possible in terms of allowable techniques and with as much contact as was tenable in order not to be too injured afterwards; although the techniques may have been catalogued in the forms, the practice contributed almost nothing to the development of that skill

incidentaly, you seem to have the habit of responding with either a reductio ad absurdum or a non sequitor to ideas that you don't agree with (he said, ending his sentance with a preposition); while that may serve to bait the rest of the hoi polloi here, I would suggest trying to be a little more analytical in our conversations if you want to have a productive discourse

[SifuAbel]

wow, you're anal.

BS!! Sparring with what? Where did you learn them? You sound like a simpleton with a dictionary.

Without the training that you now deem useless you couldn't even begin to use all these skills you have(may have). What, did they magically appear? You just knew?

[Green Cloud]

I learned the bulk of my skills by sparring with resisting opponents with as little restriction as possible in terms of allowable techniques and with as much contact as was tenable in order not to be too injured afterwards; although the techniques may have been catalogued in the forms, the practice contributed almost nothing to the development of that skill

incidentaly, you seem to have the habit of responding with either a reductio ad absurdum or a non sequitor to ideas that you don't agree with (he said, ending his sentance with a preposition); while that may serve to bait the rest of the hoi polloi here, I would suggest trying to be a little more analytical in our conversations if you want to have a productive discourse

Hold on Chris I'm busy looking up all your NYU big words in the dictionary jeesh what happened to having a normal conversation.

[Knifefighter]

You know back in the day you all used to gang up on me when I tried to offer MMA solutions.

Can you give some examples of the situations and solutions you might have given?

[SifuAbel]

I learned the bulk of my skills by sparring with resisting opponents with as little restriction as possible in terms of allowable techniques and with as much contact as was tenable in order not to be too injured afterwards; although the techniques may have been catalogued in the forms, the practice contributed almost nothing to the development of that skill

So your forms suck..too bad. Thats what that means to me. I've fought with full contact and fully resisting opponents AND had great form. I count forms as one of the best training aids I have along with fighting and everything else.

In my experience people whom poo poo form work one way or another end up really looking sloppy.

[Green Cloud]

Can you give some examples of the situations and solutions you might have given?

See Knife you and I have more in common that you think but instead of trying to get to know me you just prejudicialy hate me because I like CMA.

My point being that as much as I love CMA I think all styles have something to offer.

even back in those days I kept a clear perspective on what works and what doesn't both in Kung Fu and other MA like Jiu Jitsu and boxing and all.

My preference just happens to be CMA because it suits me but to assume that I don't know what you know is just being presumptious.

[Knifefighter]

See Knife you and I have more in common that you think but instead of trying to get to know me you just prejudicialy hate me because I like CMA.

My point being that as much as I love CMA I think all styles have something to offer.

even back in those days I kept a clear perspective on what works and what doesn't both in Kung Fu and other MA like Jiu Jitsu and boxing and all.

My preference just happens to be CMA because it suits me but to assume that I don't nknow hat you know is just being presumptious.

You and I are nothing alike.

If someone asked the same question I asked you, I would have given concrete and specific examples.

You, on the other hand, gave some lame-@ss, run-around reply about liking all styles, which is pretty much what one would expect from a fake.

It has nothing to do with you doing KF because it "suits" you. It has everything to do with kung fu being the type of thing that any phony can hide behind.

[The Xia]

I must admit Knifefighter, I underestimated your trolling skills. Perhaps you should consider getting "Knifetroller" as your new forum name. That may give people a heads-up. I mean come on, you not only got TCMArs at each others’ throats, you managed to get training brothers at each others’ throats.

Congratulations, I don't think Ralek was even able to do that.