TUF Season 4 question

[David Jamieson]

knife- you're typing stuff out, but you're not realy saying anything.

by your logic, weightlifting is bad for boxers.

augmentation training is just that.

people who say train like you fight haven't a clue how to train properly.

That fight part is part of training. It's called sparring. The training that builds attributes in a fighter have little to do with actual tactics employed.

so, holding stance with correct structure physically strengthens tendon at the joint. the strongest part of a chain is it's weakest link. Correct stance training is an efficient and worthwhile way of building strength at your most vulnerable attack points. Neglect of it leads to injury.

You say I have a misconception on injury? whatever knife, I got my share of battlescars like anyone else who has any real intention in their kungfu.

I use gear head, gloves, mouthpiece, cup, shins. this allows for full blast, but even then, full blast doesn't often come out in sparring because we want to continue to spar and to train and to not have to forgo this aspect due to downtime from injury.

not to mention, injury can come from any number of things like a bad stretch or a sloppy punch on a heavy bag.

the fundamental aspects of tcma training build strength and co-ordination in a person, the fighting aspects come later.

there is nothing new under the sun and a bunch of new age sports ideas and rehashing and co-opting of older stuff and changing teh terminology to suit those who can;t get past the poetic aspects of information exchange as found in tcma changes nothing.

man, i don't know where you get this stuff knife. lol. and then to diminish others and coming across as such a stubborn pig headed individual doesn't win any points in your side of the ring if ya get my inference.

is there some useful stuff in modern approach? you bet.

I'm just kinda tired that because there are one or two schools out there that are total bull****, everyone goes off on them as "the" models of what tcma is. such hogwash really and nothing more than insecurity with ones own ability, or just typical armchair vaniloquence if you ask me.

anyway, you still haven't said what is wrong with stance training and forms.

[Yao Sing]

Ben Gash
In the MMA fanboy world their techniques ALWAYS work while your ALWAYS fail so your fu jow attempt would result in crippled fingers.

They will tell you if you try 'X' type of punch while in their guard they'll just armbar you with the assumption that they can successfully counter anything you do. Seems the only ones immune to this are other MMA fighters.

[Nick Forrer]

See that's the thing your idea of a backfist is based on the check and back fist from win chun.

There is no back fist in wing chun..a back fist has the elbow out, the power coming from the local muscles in the arm (the tricep)...we always hit with the elbow down to get a connection with our stance....Anyone doing a backfist and calling it wing chun has poor WC body mechanics.....there is only one punch in WC which can be used from different angles and in different positions...this is why we use the huen sau action so much in SLT...to develop a supple wrist allowing us to hit when the arm is already extended without first having to withdraw the arm (I forget the chinese name for this but it translates as 'developing power from a long bridge').

Its annoying to have to correct popular misconceptions about wing chun...still this is the price you pay for commercialisation i guess

[Knifefighter]

Guys like Knifefighter seem to be of the opinion that practice should ONLY include direct fighting movements. IOW, don't skip rope because you don't hop around like that when fighting.

I don't know how common that belief is in the MMA world but you'll notice on TUF the fighters are hopping with feet together over and on top of blocks.

Overload principles during conditioning often require that the exact movements are somewhat different than the specific ones that are being trained for. However, the movements should still be as close as possible to the ones of the activity. Additionally, one should always attempt to train the specific energy systems to be used.

And, yes, there are more efficient ways to train fighting endurance than skipping rope.

That just tells me that beliefs like KF's are not held by the serious professional MMA fighters.

MMA is still in its infancy. There are still some less than efficient training techniques being used . MMA does not have the means to support the level of training expertise that high budget sports such as the NBA and NFL do. Coaches in the latter sports know that you don't want your athletes spending limited training resources working on movement patterns and energy systems that are not specific to the activity.

[Yao Sing]

I've refferred to the TUF TV series a few times because I've never trained MMA and never even watched a class so my insight comes from the show.

You'll notice on the show they spar light and work on movement and position. They don't bash each other attempting to practice 'like real'.

They also workout doing things like pushups with one hand on a ball and alternating hands. Hopping with feet together over blocks. Actions that aren't found in a real fight.

This training is coming from top level fighters and trainers. These are the guys that peeps like KF aspire to be yet he bashes their training methods.

I mention Chuck Liddel teaching them how to use a cop choy which, regardless of what he calls it or where he learned it, is a CMA technique. Seems like Chuck like to use "swinging arms".

So why do we argue with someone who clearly is not knowledgeable about the subject and is probably just here to ruffle feathers.

[Knifefighter]

There is no back fist in wing chun.

Yeah, WC has its own version of inefficient striking.

[Knifefighter]

I've refferred to the TUF TV series a few times because I've never trained MMA and never even watched a class so my insight comes from the show.

Nuff said.

You'll notice on the show they spar light and work on movement and position.

Movement patterns that are specific to the activity.

They don't bash each other attempting to practice 'like real'.

Much of their practice is sparring close to "for real". Additionally, like Muay Thai fighters, their "for real" time also comes from their matches, something one doesn't get if he doesn't compete.

They also workout doing things like pushups with one hand on a ball and alternating hands. Hopping with feet together over blocks. Actions that aren't found in a real fight.

These are overload plyometric conditioning drills. Ideally, you make these movements as closes to the real ones as possible. Often the overload requires that you change the movement patterns somewhat.

This training is coming from top level fighters and trainers. These are the guys that peeps like KF aspire to be yet he bashes their training methods.

Top level fighters, yes.
Top level trainers, not necessarily.
Top level trainers have at least a four year degree in an exercise science related field and have certifications from nationally recognized organizations such as the American College of Sports Medicine or National Strength and Conditioning Association. These are the types of trainers hired by high budget sports such as the NFL and NBA.

[Nick Forrer]

Yeah, WC has its own version of inefficient striking.

Wow, you're really on a mission to troll today. Slow day at work?

[Knifefighter]

by your logic, weightlifting is bad for boxers.

Weightlifting is great for boxers, as long as you follow the principles I have been outlining. Do it wrong and its almost as bad as stance training.
Performing isolation preacher curls will be a very inefficient training method for boxers.
On the other hand, multi-joint explosive power lifts are great.

people who say train like you fight haven't a clue how to train properly.

People who think you train significantly differently than you fight don't have a clue.

so, holding stance with correct structure physically strengthens tendon at the joint.

Muscle and tendon are strengthened together. You cannot strenthen one without strengtening the other. Activities such as weight training are much more effective at developing strength of the tendons and muscles.

Correct stance training is an efficient and worthwhile way of building strength at your most vulnerable attack points. Neglect of it leads to injury.

Stance training is a very inefficient method of preventing injury.

the fundamental aspects of tcma training build strength and co-ordination in a person, the fighting aspects come later.

And that is one of the things that makes it inefficient.

anyway, you still haven't said what is wrong with stance training and forms.

Stance training develops almost none of the attributes needed for fighting.
Most forms have movements that can never be performed in a real fight. They are also done in set patterns which will almost never be done in the same order during a real fight.

[SevenStar]

Yes and no, stances are designed to develop endurance. Too much stance training without plyometrics and some impact training then you will lack stregth and power.

You have to train both fast twich muscles and the slow twich muscles. But any personal trainer can tell you that Dale.

Any personal trainer can, but not any MA teacher. I know way too many instructors who give bad training advice.

[SevenStar]

One of the many strong points of Kung Fu is that provides it a great variety of training methods.

Don't all styles?

[Yao Sing]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
I've refferred to the TUF TV series a few times because I've never trained MMA and never even watched a class so my insight comes from the show.

Nuff said.

Here's another rebuttal that's totally played out. Claiming someone can't make a judgement unless they spend time training that particular style.

If that were the case then why aren't the UFC judges UFC fighters?

Get real. If I go down the to local MMA club and watch a few classes I'll see exactly what and how they train. I don't need to sign up, I have eyes and a brain.

The TUF series is reality TV. Pete Spratt didn't puke because it was in the script. That's how they train for a top level match. That fact that you don't is probably the reason you aren't at their level. Get over it.

You remind me of a classmate in 5th grade. He ran around the playground with his head tilted back so the air would shoot into his nostrils. Technically that would be the optimum but you don't see Olympic runners do that do you?

[SevenStar]

I mention Chuck Liddel teaching them how to use a cop choy which, regardless of what he calls it or where he learned it, is a CMA technique. Seems like Chuck like to use "swinging arms".

and that's my point. It's not solely a cma technique. It's a boxing technique. it's a muay thai technique. it's seen in russan styles from what someone said earlier... it's semantical really, but something I see a lot of in CMA guys. You don't see the boxers screaming "wow, he taught an overhand right - who says boxing isn't effective?" but the CMA guys love to try and find anything resembling their techniques in the media. A while back, there was even a thread because someone saw wing chun techniques in the star wars animated series!!! It's ridiculous.

So why do we argue with someone who clearly is not knowledgeable about the subject and is probably just here to ruffle feathers.

surely that wasn't directed at me...

[SevenStar]

Here's another rebuttal that's totally played out. Claiming someone can't make a judgement unless they spend time training that particular style.

can you tell a fireman how to put out a fire? would you be more qualified than the fireman even though you are not one? that one is common sense. It's not played out at all. you can't make a judgement about mma from watching it on tv anymore than I could make one about tai tzu, as I've never trained it. Naturally, that doesn't stop you from having observtions, but since you aren't speaking from experience, then how educated would the observations be. In the case of KF and I, we have had CMA training, albeit not the same style as you, most likely.

If that were the case then why aren't the UFC judges UFC fighters?

I actually know a guy who has judged several UFCs. He has full contact fighting experience and teaches bjj. I'd imagine all of the other judges have some similar frame of reference. MMA may not have been around when some of the judges were training in what they train. How many football commentators never played football at some point?

Get real. If I go down the to local MMA club and watch a few classes I'll see exactly what and how they train. I don't need to sign up, I have eyes and a brain.

I bet the TMA who entered the early mma matches thought the same thing. But you're probably right. Heck, I learned iron palm by spying on the higher ranks training after class - I peeked through the window for months and tried it on my own at home...I combined that knowledge with what I learned from watching bugs fight.

[David Jamieson]

Weightlifting is great for boxers, as long as you follow the principles I have been outlining. Do it wrong and its almost as bad as stance training.
Performing isolation preacher curls will be a very inefficient training method for boxers.
On the other hand, multi-joint explosive power lifts are great.

the point was that augmentation training shouldn't be regarded as tactics development. It is attribute development. stance training develops the attribute of strength and root as well as leading to proper footing and grounding, which is part and parcel.

People who think you train significantly differently than you fight don't have a clue.

so what is it then? no weights? no bag work? nothing that doesn't directly translate to hitting one another?

Muscle and tendon are strengthened together. You cannot strenthen one without strengtening the other. Activities such as weight training are much more effective at developing strength of the tendons and muscles.

weight training can also strees the joints and can in fact weaken the joints when done improperly. There are many examples of improper weight training. probably moreso than incorrect cma training.

Stance training is a very inefficient method of preventing injury.

This is not the primary focus, but nevertheless, i disagree. weight lifting is inefficient to preventuing injury, what's your point?

And that is one of the things that makes it inefficient.

again, empty words with nothing factual to back it up despite the reems of information to the contrary that has been shown again and again for a very long time.

Stance training develops almost none of the attributes needed for fighting.
Most forms have movements that can never be performed in a real fight. They are also done in set patterns which will almost never be done in the same order during a real fight.

text book forms are text book. adaptation of techniques to fit the situation is next step from empty pattern. empty pattern becomes filled with jins and ultimately is extrapolated and translaes directly to fighting. think multiple drills strung into a longer drill. You are quite incorrect in your assumption here.