Plumb flower mantis

[mantid1]

Dont worry Jake Im not hot Just making a friendly comment.

I find it funny when someone says "I dont want to ruffle feathers ...but..."

[shuaichiao]

Shuai
Well I am no expert, and I do not mean to ruffle feathers, but the Mantis at Wahlum is not always considered the most traditional out there. I have no clue what their curriculum entails, and honestly have no clue where there mantis really comes from. There are many more qualified people here to ask than I. Sorry I cannot help more. You must remember though Wahlum is not traditional Meihua! Much different.
Cheers
Jake

I know all about wah lums history ect. What I'm saying is that my wah lum teacher knew a couple of plum flower forms in addition to wah lum material. It's authentic plum flower style, I just don't know where it came from. Yao Sing maybe right about it comming from Zhang Bing Doa, I don't know for sure. My sifu learned a lot of non wah lum material in China before comming to America so not all of what he tuaght came through Chan Pui or Chan Wan Ching.

[shuaichiao]

I'll see what I can dig up for you.

Ok, I can't hold back anymore. Does Plumb Flower Mantis do their forms in a straight vertical line?

Are you asking me? I only learned the lan jeet form and I saw one other demonstrated. I also learned part of a 2 handed gim form. Lan jeet was pretty much a linear form, I'm assuming you mean horizontal line cuase I definately didn't learn to fly while doing the form.

[onyomi]

Luan Jie is really a "make your own form" form, which is why it's called "randomly connecting." The original idea was you start out with like 16 positions and then you have to connect them in an appropriate way, that reflects your own fighting style. Lots of famous masters' Lanjie's have been recorded and imitated, therefore turning it into a form in its own right. Many people are taught Lanjie as just a regular form, but what they are actually learning is a previous master's version of how to connect a set of postures. For this reason, there is a lot of variation in Lanjies, even moreso than with other forms.

[Yao Sing]

shuaichiao
Sorry, it was a feeble attempt at a joke. It's Plum Blossom, not Plumb Blossom.

From answers.com:
plumb (plŭm)
n.
A weight on the end of a line, used to determine water depth.
A weight on the end of a line, used especially by masons and carpenters to establish a true vertical.
adv.
In a vertical or perpendicular line.
Informal. Directly; squarely: fell plumb in the middle of the puddle.
also plum Informal. Utterly; completely: plumb worn out. See Note at right.


onyomi
I've heard that before and I like that idea. My opinion of forms is that they shouldn't be worshipped as they are and all Sifus, especially Masters, should be able to create their own as needed.

It's great to cherish some of the better ones from past great masters but there seems to be an aversion and stigma to 'making up' forms like it's taboo or somehow dishonest.

I would question the knowledge of a teacher who doesn't create.

[keef321]

Keef
Yes QI Xing has them, they may be pronounced differently depending on the school (Contonese dialect would be LanJeet, and I think Batzhou?? But I have no clue since I always use mandarin). But Qi Xing tanglang certainly has them.
)

Thanks for that info Jake, the only similar form names I can find on our list are Jet Kuen/Jie Quan/Section boxing and Yat Lo Bau Chau/Yi Lu Ba Zhoug/Routine 1 of Ba Elbow there is also a routine 2.

Check out leekamwing.co.uk and click on the forms list for a full list.

Hope you or someone else reading can help me on this one.

Cheers

[Three Harmonies]

Keef
Jet Kuen is a Chin Woo set, totally different, and not a mantis set. The routine 1 and 2 of Bat Zhou is Ba Zhou. I could not get the page to come up with the listing of forms, but I am almost 100% sure you guys have Lanjie, but again your romanization of the language is from a Cantonese dialect so I am not sure how you guys spell it. You have it though.

Onyomi
While I agree nothing should be "worshipped" Chuan Pu exist for a reason, and the Chuan Pu are not changed with each teacher. That keeps a decently tight parameter as to variations within forms.
I have never heard what you speak of in terms of just putting techniques together. Depending on the system, and which charchters we are speaking of Lan Jie can also mean intercepting early, or intercepting / blocking early (no real good translation in English, I encourage you to investigate). I am no historian so I have no clue which came first or the original or anything like that.
I believe you are making a blanket statement in regards to "many variations" of forms. I have seen many different variations of Bung Bu / Zhai Yao / White Ape etc. etc. etc. Does not mean they are techniques just strung together.

FWIW
Jake

[Yao Sing]

Like I mentioned I have heard that before about Luan Jie. I believe it was from Kevin but I'm not sure.

Anyhow Jake, I don't believe Onyami was talking about the differences in forms in general. This is specific to Luan Jie.

"Does not mean they are techniques just strung together"

All sets are techniques strung together and I don't think anyone is implying a random series without thought or meaning.

It's almost like your schools Luan Jie would be your teachers made up set. Another schools Luan Jie would be their teachers made up set.

If you ask to see someone's kung fu everyone will do something different. Kung Fu is not just one specific thing and what Onyami is saying is that Luan Jie is not one specific thing.

I believe the only criteria is that the moves are the same (I think he said a specific 16 moves) but the order, linkgage, application, etc. are unique.

I really like that idea and if the general consensus is that Luan Jie is a specific set then maybe we can offer up an informal contest. Everyone agrees on a specific handful of moves then each school creates a taolu with extra points for a ling set.

Dang, I should be posting this on MQ where we can really get something going. Hey Steve, I've got an idea that could use your organizational skills.

[ironfenix]

I think we have the same set Shuaichiao. It is a 4 road form (5 roads if you count the turning around in the end). I have not gotten the Li En Jiu's tcpm version from Art Laoshi. This Lian Jeet I got from someone else. The set came from ZBD but i can't help but wonder if it was americanized somehow. If every master had a similar list of moves, I think who ever made this form lost a couple of pages. It is no where near as intricate as other versions I have seen.

Yao Sing, I like that idea. That would be great to see each persons creativity. We can always just informally do this you know and everyone who is interested posts up their form. Would be neat i think.

[K.Brazier]

Hi O,
'Luan Jie is really a "make your own form" form, which is why it's called "randomly connecting."

I wrote an article on this for MQ a while back.
Luan means chaotic in the modern vernacular, but in Ming dynasty martial manuscripts it is defined as wrapping to left and right.

I also mentioned how this type of technique called luan repeats itself within the luan jie form based on the oldest manuscripts.

Since that articel was published I have come across older luan jie manuscripts(or so they say) which only substantiate the origianl premise of my article.

Which was that the form luan jie teaches how to connect wrapping techniues for the purpose of defeating cleaving techniques.

In some other articles I then explained thru old quotes the significance of cleaving to mantis.

Jake just mentioned wu da lian huan pi / 5 strikes of interconnected cleaving as the opening move of the form.

Kevin

http://plumflowermantisboxing.com/

[Three Harmonies]

Kevin
So would "wrapping" be demonstrated like an over/under hook, or am I thinking of something other??
Thanks,
Jake

[K.Brazier]

Hi Jake,
I think I put some examples in the article.
How they meant wrapping way back when is probably a point that could be debated.
But, you see it in single/double sealing. Especially in luanjie where it is done on one side and then the next as a recurring them of the form.

Kevin

[Three Harmonies]

Thanks. I will look up the article.
Everything is debatable otherwise what would we do on these silly forums!??!?!
Cheers
Jake