Wing Chun uses U.S. Special Forces?

[Edmund]

After all the crap that people have been talking I expected the video would only look vaguely like WC.

But the guys were doing WC like little WC robots. The chain punches, the hand guarding positions, the stances and steps. The video shows those guys using WC. You're blind if you can't recognize it.

Holy pooper scooper, Victor was dead right!

[YungChun]

In general I agree Victor, I am all for cross training in multiple disciplines and using WCK as the core/common thread that joins all as one..

I see the methods used in the video and similar methods as highly economical in situations where tenths of a second count.. I see all out ground grappling in multiple threat situations as less desirable, not to say you can't or may not need to use some locks, throws, but ground grappling is a last resort IMO and combative instructors I have spoken with agree and also advocate training shooters to make lots of space if they need and intend to use—draw and aim—their firearm. Most folks when a threat presents itself will not have their weapon drawn and ready to fire..

Most of the Chinese arts use weapons and to my knowledge did not emphasize the use of armor as was seen in Europe way back when. In other countries they also used weapons and when invading armies came marching into battle I seriously doubt they did so using ground grappling—which IMO is more seen in sport, or duel type fights, both then and now..

Most TMA don't focus on ground work, not to say it isn't needed, it is, but in certain tactical situations explosive and instant "kills" that take the opponent “of the moment” out of the game in order to move onto the next threat is critical, and again combative instructors I have talked to have emphasized not spending too much time on one person in these cases, even if you have to “finish them” later, the need to “move on” is key. These kinds of economical moves also help the "defender" to transition to the next threat quickly and efficiently...

[Asia]

After all the crap that people have been talking I expected the video would only look vaguely like WC.

But the guys were doing WC like little WC robots. The chain punches, the hand guarding positions, the stances and steps. The video shows those guys using WC. You're blind if you can't recognize it.

Holy pooper scooper, Victor was dead right!

Not really. Look at the stance and the way the move its closer to a wrestler/grappler than to WC.

Wing Chun posture
Wing Chun posture
Wing Chun posture
compared to
Wrestling posture
Wrestling posture
I'm not saying their wrestlling but in the context of the task at hand that posture is more suited than what is seen in WC. I explained already why the posture is used so I must be blind because I don't see WC I see Military ops.

Most of the Chinese arts use weapons and to my knowledge did not emphasize the use of armor as was seen in Europe way back when. In other countries they also used weapons and when invading armies came marching into battle I seriously doubt they did so using ground grappling—which IMO is more seen in sport, or duel type fights, both then and now..

Actually on the battlefeild they did. Armor grappling is a common theme in Chinese battlefeild MA. Tongbei Quan and Piquaquan are two examples of this. You didn't go out to battle without armor.

Notice I said:

99% of old TMA arts that had lot of CLINCH work in it.

Clinching is grappling and it happened alot. Schools trained this so when they were in close quarters with an enemy and again the goal was to take them down and stab them.

Most TMA don't focus on ground work

Here you have to make the distinction between battlefeild arts and civilian arts as well as time period. Why because the oldest forms of MA in almost any country or society have been grappling arts and ground work was included.

it is, but in certain tactical situations explosive and instant "kills" that take the opponent “of the moment” out of the game in order to move onto the next threat is

You mean like taking a guy down where he is most vulnerable and killing him? Because thats how wars were traditionally fought. Now if we need an instant "kill" we squeeze a trigger, pull pin and throw, etc. The role of Combatives in modern warfare is for sudbuing and not just killing.

of the moment” out of the game in order to move onto the next threat is critical, and again combative instructors I have talked to have emphasized not spending too much time on one person in these cases, even if you have to “finish them” later, the need to “move on” is key.

I agree only if the goal is to escape. If you are trying to fight it out or in a situation where you can't escape this method could get you into trouble because if you just delay the threat its just going to come back and its generally not when you are ready for it again.

Besides I think a critical point is being overlooked in this. One of the things this type of training instills in soldiers is e'spirt de corp. Its what binds the unit together and have them work as a TEAM. Your buddy is watching your back. If you are in a situation when you are facing multiples alone, wether military or civilain, something is horribly wrong. I wouldn't go out to a place where there is a possiblity of violence (clubs, bars, streets at night, etc) alone just like I wouldn't try to clear a building alone. Its extremely hard to face multiple opponents. The chances of coming out in good standing is slim and anyone preaching otherwise is delusional.

[Tom Kagan]

If anyone is interested, I managed to squash the full documentary - nearly 3 gigabytes - down to less than 100 megabytes. I chopped out every other frame and and used extreme mpeg4 settings to compress it to within an inch of its life. It's not exactly pretty, but it is still watchable:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...17F8D153F7181D

The above link link will be valid for the next seven days and only allows 100 downloads, so get it while it's hot.


You may need the xVid video decoder to view the file. If you need it, you can download xVid binaries from here

[Fajing]

I wouldn't go out to a place where there is a possiblity of violence (clubs, bars, streets at night, etc) alone just like I wouldn't try to clear a building alone. Its extremely hard to face multiple opponents. The chances of coming out in good standing is slim and anyone preaching otherwise is delusional.

Ah ha, I definitely agree with this. I have known too many martial artists of various styles that think they can deal with anything including multiple assailants and/or attackers weilding knives. Gimme a break! Anywho, debate on folks.

[Edmund]

Not really. Look at the stance and the way the move its closer to a wrestler/grappler than to WC.

Wing Chun posture
Wing Chun posture
Wing Chun posture
compared to
Wrestling posture
Wrestling posture
I'm not saying their wrestlling but in the context of the task at hand that posture is more suited than what is seen in WC. I explained already why the posture is used so I must be blind because I don't see WC I see Military ops.

Sorry Asia, but in terms of WC, you don't know what to look for. Plus you had your mind very much made up PRIOR to even seeing the thing.

You can come up with your own explanations, but a WC person can recognize the fundamental elements in the clip.

[Asia]

Sorry Asia, but in terms of WC, you don't know what to look for. Plus you had your mind very much made up PRIOR to even seeing the thing.

You can come up with your own explanations, but a WC person can recognize the fundamental elements in the clip.

Its not my own interpretation its what is taught in combatives. As far as knowing what to look for, Tom Kagan is my WC sisuk, I am not completely ignorant of WC, but many here are of Military combatives.

[Knifefighter]

Asia-
Great and insightful posts.

I can't believe you guys are trying to debate this with a guy who is a military combatives instructor.

How many of you debating him have even BEEN in the military?


.

[Edmund]

Its not my own interpretation its what is taught in combatives. As far as knowing what to look for, Tom Kagan is my WC sisuk, I am not completely ignorant of WC, but many here are of Military combatives.

Probably but this has little to do with being in the military really.

The clip shows just what Victor said it did - key WC elements. Period.

You can dispute how accurate the documentary was in terms of military training but that's another issue.

No offence to Tom Kagan, but I don't know who he is. And he's only your sisuk, which is a pretty tenuous relationship anyway. That doesn't really imply that you know what to look for in terms of WC.

[Asia]

Probably but this has little to do with being in the military really.

The clip shows just what Victor said it did - key WC elements. Period.

Thats debateable considering that thier posture wasn't akin to WC and as far as the detainee drill there is no context to for it in WC. So other than the hand position, which is not unique, and the punching, again not unique, there isn little to show WC.

You can dispute how accurate the documentary was in terms of military training but that's another issue.

I already posted how accurate it was.

No offence to Tom Kagan, but I don't know who he is. And he's only your sisuk, which is a pretty tenuous relationship anyway. That doesn't really imply that you know what to look for in terms of WC.

Being sisuk that means he knows my teacher and I posted my experience on the other thread.

[Tom Kagan]

The clip shows just what Victor said it did - key WC elements. Period.

If that is the case, then any two random animals fighting show some "key WC elements" as you put it.


Exclamation point.

[Edmund]

Thats debateable considering that thier posture wasn't akin to WC and as far as the detainee drill there is no context to for it in WC. So other than the hand position, which is not unique, and the punching, again not unique, there isn little to show WC.

Sorry but I think others with a fair bit of WC experience do see some.

[Edmund]

If that is the case, then any two random animals fighting show some "key WC elements" as you put it.

I saw your arguments earlier in the thread, Tom. They pretty much implied that you saw what Victor was referring to.

[Tom Kagan]

I saw your arguments earlier in the thread, Tom. They pretty much implied that you saw what Victor was referring to.

Anti-process at work. People will read what they want to read.


I will myself clearer: I agree with Asia. While some may see a familiar signature, it doesn't make it the same.


(Does that make this SiSuk an Uncle Tom? )


Hey look everyone! John Sullivan did WC (yeah right. Or perhaps we do western boxing, instead? )

compare

[Edmund]

Anti-process at work. People will read what they want to read.


I will myself clearer: I agree with Asia. While some may see a familiar signature, it doesn't make it the same.

If you don't see anything, fine.

I see very obvious similarities.