Gracie gets beat...

[gabe]

What exactly does this thread has to do with WC

Well there was a bit of a lineage war here.

[reneritchie]

Kimura and Americana are just two honorifics applied to the different (up and down) versions of the same Judo move, Ude Garami (sp?).

Far as I know, Judo is still taught to most (all?) Japanese children as phys. ed. in school.

For some reason, it's also the Gracie's kryptonite, as Kimura broke Helio's arm with it, Sakuraba dislocated Renzo's and had Royler's locked tight, and Hughes had it locked on Royce for a while.

[jesper]

AmanuJRY sez
Is there a problem with that?

Not if you want to talk about the actual fight and what we can learn from it.

However I do have a problem when the thread turns into an argument about what is best or most authentic between bjj practitioners and catch followers. there are more appropriate forums for that.

Ah well, probably just me so keep up the discussion about which wrestling style is best

[GungFuHillbilly]

I want to thank everyone for sharing...

I may not agree with someone and If I wanted to hear about BJJ or Catch sure I could go to those forums...but more than likely those people would not know anything about wing chun.

So...I appreciate that some wing chun folks here are not so myopic as to say 'if it's not wing chun we can't talk about it'

I recently got together with a guy who's a Goju instructor and did some sparring. There was some good stuff learned on both our parts.

Heck, whatever happened to a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick? (or is it a lock is a lock and a throw is a throw...a take down is a take down and a choke is a choke...oh darn! )

-GFH

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is the first page of a thread on the UG entitled:

Western Wrestling + Boxing =


From: tx mma'er
Date: 06/01/06 10:49 PM
Member Since: 10/01/2005
171 Total Posts Ignore User


the winning fighting combo. Along with a little sub defense, of course. Kicks are worthless for non-genetic freaks like Cro-Cop, IMO, and everyone is increasingly becoming wary of subs, IMO.
On TUF, the deaf guy sucks at boxing, but is still dominating the BJJ ace in the fight right now. Countless others have the same style, but more refined- Liddell, Hendo, Rampage, Couture, Gomi, etc....

Great wrestlers that know how to throw hands and have basic submission knowledge will rule MMA in the future.

Opinions?


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From: Esteban Barragan
Date: 06/01/06 11:03 PM
Member Since: 11/25/2005
95 Total Posts Ignore User


If you think that, then you should drop by my gym

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From: mog87
Date: 06/01/06 11:05 PM
Member Since: 01/17/2006
207 Total Posts Ignore User


in the future you mean in the present, in the future you will have to be good at every aspect of the game.

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From: jasculs
Date: 06/01/06 11:08 PM
Member Since: 07/28/2002
797 Total Posts Ignore User


"but is still dominating the BJJ ace"
2 1/2 years of jiu jitsu is hardly a BJJ ace, plus his jiu jitsu sucked ass. He is probably a beginner blue belt at best.


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From: Wasa-B
Date: 06/01/06 11:09 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
13318 Total Posts Ignore User


The boxing/wrestling combo is great and has done wonders for the Liddels, Gomis, CCs, Kids, Hendos, Jens', etc but if they get taken down, you need bjj/the guard (though both the wrestling/bjj aspects help them get back up).

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From: AvAMajestic
Date: 06/01/06 11:09 PM
Member Since: 10/22/2002
557 Total Posts Ignore User


Opinions?
Basically that you know very little about the fight game.


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From: pulsar
Date: 06/01/06 11:11 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
25897 Total Posts Ignore User


If you choose to ignore either of the 3 points of the MMA triangle - striking, takedowns and groundwork you are only fooling yourself.





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From: Haole
Date: 06/01/06 11:12 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1048 Total Posts Ignore User


If you think that, then you should drop by my gym
I will send Couture, Baroni, Hendo and Gomi right over, what the address?


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From: FightStudent
Date: 06/01/06 11:55 PM
Member Since: 05/28/2004
1465 Total Posts Ignore User


I think that what the initial poster is saying the MMA'er who realizes the greatest success as a fighter, in the shortest amount of time, is the one who comes from a Wrestling and Boxing background, who supplements his pre-existing skills with submission defense and "Muay Thai" (i.e. kicks, knees, and elbow strikes) defense; he does not necessarily need to learn submission or Muay Thai style striking, he only need to defend against it.
I don't necessarily agree with the initial poster, but I think that that is basically what he is saying.


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From: pulsar
Date: 06/02/06 12:17 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
25903 Total Posts Ignore User


"I don't necessarily agree with the initial poster, but I think that that is basically what he is saying."
And that's precisely where I disagree. If you look at grass roots level shows, still many fights are won by submission...

It's the veteran wrestlers at the top of the food chain that get the most accolades... Which is to be expected.

I personally think Wrestling is the best base too, but it absolutely MUST incorporate submissions to be successful, so you could argue they are as important as each other.


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From: PoundforPound
Date: 06/02/06 03:05 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
5471 Total Posts Ignore User


Submissions are absolutely necessary. And I'd argue that Muay Thai leg kicks, elbows, and knees are too.
But yeah, boxing and wrestling are a solid base to start from.


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From: 50rounds
Date: 06/02/06 03:12 AM
Member Since: 05/13/2006
638 Total Posts Ignore User


"but is still dominating the BJJ ace"
"2 1/2 years of jiu jitsu is hardly a BJJ ace, plus his jiu jitsu sucked ass. He is probably a beginner blue belt at best."

Nickels IS a blue belt

he's no kind of standard bearer for BJJ fighters

tell Sakara that all he needed to beat Lister was boxing & wrestling


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From: effinggoof
Date: 06/02/06 03:17 AM
Member Since: 01/18/2003
3127 Total Posts Ignore User


Wrestling+ boxing= ground and pound

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 01:15 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1061 Total Posts Ignore User


tell Sakara that all he needed to beat Lister was boxing & wrestling
He doesnt have any wrestling he is a boxer/JJ guy.






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From: triso
Date: 06/02/06 01:21 PM
Member Since: 01/09/2006
267 Total Posts Ignore User


When will people stop using examples of cross-trained fighters, and intentionally chosen wins of said fighters to prove their "points" and "theories" about which style/base is best?
Give it up. You're making yourself look stupid.


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From: MMAPitbull
Date: 06/02/06 02:29 PM
Member Since: 05/15/2003
894 Total Posts Ignore User


It is simple. You must have bjj,wrestling,Muay Thai, and boxing. That is the best combo. If you do not train one of these, you will eventually be exposed.

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 02:34 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1065 Total Posts Ignore User


It is simple. You must have bjj,wrestling,Muay Thai, and boxing. That is the best combo. If you do not train one of these, you will eventually be exposed.
Shut up

-Chuck Liddell


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From: JInJackson
Date: 06/02/06 02:42 PM
Member Since: 02/26/2004
205 Total Posts Ignore User


So which one of those four does Chuck not train in?

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 02:44 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1066 Total Posts Ignore User


MT

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 02:45 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1067 Total Posts Ignore User


Fedor says shutup also.

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[Knifefighter]

Victor-
Why aren't you over there telling them how important WC is in the MMA mix?
That should liven up the discussion.

[stricker]

actually something thats been talked about a bit recently in mma is the difference in fighting strategy from boxing or thai to mma. the big changes in stand up are 1. be more aggressive always attack dont let up when you get the advantage eg you cant spend time figuring them out like early rounds in boxing or thai 2. hitting in the clinch etc is more important eg dirty boxing 3. watch for level changes and other takedowns eg trips

now to me 1 and 2 are what wing chun is! the wing chun people in mma so far have sucked at 3 tho but take a stripped down to the basics simple direct efficient wing chun very pugillistic hitting at every chance not playing chi sao games and i think that could make some moves in mma. just my crazy idea of course but i believe it could....

^^ thanks you know who you are

[Jam_master]

Bottomline is that both MMA and WC can benifit greatly from each other. Most MMA and BJJ people, from a WC stand point, have lousy hands period! (Haven't seen not one MMA or BJJ guy ever cover their face upon entry). And WC people need to address grappling more in their Kwoon (either to administer, or to counter agains, or both). As good as some WC guys may be, accidents do happen. (You can be faked into a takedown, you can slip and fall, your chain punching may even be rendered ineffective agains someone who can take it cause he's built solid or he's on the juice!, you can get tired, you can get careles, etc...).

In any case, we must all be able to adopt to change, and constantly familiarize ourseles with all possible counters and different approaches others will have and can offer so we as martial artist can be better prepared in any given situation.

Remember too that WC is more of a method, a concept, a scientific approach to fighting rather than a fixed and rigid style. WC theories and methods can be applied to almost any other system for added efficiency. IMO, It's the universal donor of all martial arts! LOL!!

[stricker]

Most MMA and BJJ people, from a WC stand point, have lousy hands period! (Haven't seen not one MMA or BJJ guy ever cover their face upon entry).

totally disagree on this one. maybe most but my mma gym are big into thai so knees using the plum sprawling etc are drilled in so when shooting its important to set it up, level change first etc. of course there are awful shoots too.

some good stuff otherwise man.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Jam_Master:

Have you ever seen Fedor Emelianko, Chuck Lidell, Mirko Cro Cop, Vanderlai Silva, or Mark Hunt fight?

They all have VERY GOOD hands...and in the case of Cro Cop - awesome kicks. (And Fedor and Vanderlai are no joke with their kicks either).

And plenty of wrestler types in MMA are good ENOUGH with their hands and feet to work their way into clinch or takedown range very smoothly (ie.- Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, etc.)


Times have changed.

[unkokusai]

Great wrestlers that know how to throw hands and have basic submission knowledge will rule the future.

------------

These words should be repeated as often as possible.

[Merryprankster]

On the more serious side. MP, sure you can reduce all grappling arts to wrestling and submission...just the same you can reduce all stand-up to elbows, punching, knees, kicking and headbutts (clinch being considered in the grappling), right?

So where does style make the difference in either?

For sportive styles, the answer is rule sets. If I made the pin a winning position in BJJ, the guard would instantly disappear, and the knee and elbow escape would instantly be dumped in favor of the bridge escape.

But it's not just a matter of reduction. What changes is not the technique. It's the preferred strategy and tactics, and that changes what you emphasize in practice.

A head and arm throw is executed exactly the same way in Judo, Sambo and Wrestling. It has a different name in each, but its the same.

Seio Nage and Flying mare - identical.

However, the strategy and tactics are STILL present in each art and different people are successful with each. Plenty of BJJers have been made winners because of their takedown skills. Plenty are winners because of their top game etc... Plenty of wrestlers have only average takedowns, but are incredible mat wrestlers.

I also object to UWC claiming the win for "catch." That's like one of the Gracies saying that every win in the UFC was now a win for BJJ because of everybody must study submission to win.

Rediculous.

Gotta run. Practice!

[gabe]

For sportive styles, the answer is rule sets. If I made the pin a winning position in BJJ, the guard would instantly disappear, and the knee and elbow escape would instantly be dumped in favor of the bridge escape.

!

This statement is what concerns me, how rule sets dicate evolution. As sporting events become the standard, techniques outside of the rulesets will disappear. Many argue that a trained fighter can adapt on the street and use these "illegal" techniques or methods when needed. That goes against the notion that one uses what one trains. If you don't train it, you don't have it. It's the common arguement, a true one I might add, when a WC person states that his system has everything he needs for grappling, yet never does any grappling himself. In a similar vein, If you train to go for a pin and have tons of experience and matches under your belt, what do you think this muscle memory will do when you are on the street? You would instinctively go for a pin when the opportunity presented itself; that's what you train, that's what you'll do. Would an "illegal" technique serve you better, one that resulted in real injury to end the fight? Perhaps, but it is not what you train. And that moment's hesitation might be costly.

I bring this up for several reasons. Many, like sevenstar, have said the best fighters have only a few techniques that they employ day in and day out. They own them, they win with them. That goes for all arts, imo. Many traditional masters have earned their credibility with just a few techniques. These techniques may be rendered useless in a sporting event, due to the rules or the equipment; but are still extremely valid in the street. These people are only good with these few techniques. The notion that they should be able to adapt principles to any sporting event if it is a good art is not a valid one imo. I've seen that said over and over in these forums.

There is no need to debate the usefullness or realistic circumstances of sport training. But that is a specialized box suited for those that understand the rules and use it to their maximum advantage. Those techniques outside this box and the people who specialize in them ought not be disregarded. Evolution does not always mean improvement. Sorry, this is what MP's statement made me think about.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Gabe...

Brilliant post !!!

[Knifefighter]

As sporting events become the standard, techniques outside of the rulesets will disappear.
If you don't train it, you don't have it.

This is true, but only to a degree. Remember when MMA events allowed head butts? Nobody really trained them, but most people used them pretty effectively.

The problem with most illegal techniques is that they cannot be trained at full force against a resisting opponent who is also going full force.

The non-deadly technique trained and used against resisting opponents will almost always be more effective than the “deadly” technique that cannot be trained full force.

If you don't train it, you don't have it

... and if you don't train it full force, you don't have it.

At least the sports guys have their bread and butter techniques that they have used day in and day out at 100%. They know and understand exactly how these techs are used when done full force.

The "too deadly" guys have next to nothing because they almost never use their stuff full out.