Takedown V Attributes

[ghostofwingchun]

Please post the video clips of the REAL street altercations you have been in. I would like to see them, and maybe learn from them as well.

I am sorry but I have never been in street fight as adult . . . I could tell you that I had of course . . . make up huge number . . . with multiple opponents . . . some armed even . . . and say my wc was so good I won them all . . . I am wanted by law on several continents I am so bad . . . lol . . .. sure you would believe me right? My fighting . . . as it is . . . is restricted to gym . . . against other poor sport people . . . we are not that good . . . and are very happy those who have had millions of street fights and are so deadly never show up to compete with us . . . after all we do not want to be maimed blinded or die.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Fajing]

I am sorry but I have never been in street fight as adult . . . I could tell you that I had of course . . . make up huge number . . . with multiple opponents . . . some armed even . . . and say my wc was so good I won them all . . . I am wanted by law on several continents I am so bad . . . lol . . .. sure you would believe me right? My fighting . . . as it is . . . is restricted to gym . . . against other poor sport people . . . we are not that good . . . and are very happy those who have had millions of street fights and are so deadly never show up to compete with us . . . after all we do not want to be maimed blinded or die.

Thanks,

Ghost

Ah ha...well at least you're honest about this. I have been in very few myself, and prefer to avoid them ALL if possible. After listening to some people on the forum, it almost sounds like they're fighting on a daily basis. It's good to avoid fighting, however my only point was, when something does go down, you probably won't have someone standing by with a video camera. Sure this happens all of the time at events that are already being filmed; such as seminars, TV shows, and MMA events, but in our everyday lives we're probably not constantly being recorded like that. PEACE

[Ultimatewingchun]

OK, Victor: let me ask you this simple question. How would you demonstrate the use of tan-dar against someone that's 20lbs hevier than yourself, and he can use full and continous force, whilst wearing a birdcage and boxing gloves?

***FIRST OF ALL, csk....

It's about time you stop using the derogatory phrase "birdcage" to describe headgear with a metal facecage....since by soing so you not only continue to come across as snotty and arrogant - but you also contradict the "I'm a rough tough wing chun guy" persona that you occasionally try to foster in some of your outbursts.

Why do I say that?

Because if you, chisauking, actually do engage in frequent hard contact spontaneous sparring - and since so much of wing chun is geared toward punching or palm striking someone's face or head - then you should know that protection and safeguards need to be used to avoid the kinds of injuries that would make such frequent sparring impossible to do.

So once again I have to say that I doubt it quite highly that you actually engage in this kind of realistic training.

Secondly....you loaded your question about tan da by referring to boxing gloves.

Who ever said anything about boxing gloves?

So I'll answer a more pertinent question:

Using thin, semi-fingerless gloves against someone wearing the headgear that I described - and he's using "full and continous force"...and he's 20 lbs. heavier...

Yes...tan-da can be done. Will it have the same exact effect as if there were no gloves and no headgear with a metal facecage?

No. A full force tan da might stop him in his tracks with no gear - whereas the other way he might shake it off somewhat and keep coming.

BUT THAT'S PART OF THE TRADE-OFF one makes when wanting to train with realistic spontaneous full contact.

You just don't seem to want to get that point, do you?

All done in addition to frequent lighter contact spontaneous sparring with no equipment.

[jmdrake]

Thanks...I didn't know that...my first time hearing about or seeing the guy was yesterday.
With the help of all of you guys i'm slowly but surely learning about mma and bjj and truthfully speaking...i do like mma.
I guess i'm biased against it because I hear people trash traditional forms of fighting in favor of mma or bjj...and i think mma and bjj is HIGHLY OVERRATED
in contrast to traditional chinese kung fu,but at the same time i wouldn't say that
some of it wouldn't work on the streets either???
Still, it was cool seeing Gracie getting his a$$ whupped

Hey, I can understand the sentiment. But when someone outgrapples a Gracie it hardly does anything to promote Chinese kung fu. Notice on the clip that Sakaruba had better takedowns. (I counted at least three). And yeah, he had better striking too, but it wasn't "Chinese Kung Fu" striking. Nothing against Chinese Kung Fu, it's just that this clip didn't demonstrate any.

Respect in the MMA world is something Chinese kung fu fighters will have to earn on their own. Other styles have done so already. Maurice Smith proved kickboxing could be effective against grappling. (Now most of the top fighters do some mixture of kickboxing and grappling). A couple of years ago I remember a judo fighter winning his division. (Before that I saw a lot of MMA "keyboard warriors" downing judoka.) I've got an MMA dvd showing a karate fighter knocking out a muy/thai - bjj fighter. The announcers kept talking about how he was "one of the few that can make that traditional martial arts stuff work in the ring." There's even a capoeira stylist that's done well recently in MMA.

http://www.jeansilva.co.uk/downloads...ghts_small.wmv

There are more and more WC stylists crosstraining for MMA bouts. Of course, for some ODD reason, people only look at their grappling training and assume THAT must be the sole reason for their success. (I say that's ODD because that doesn't happen to muy thai stylists or kyokusin stylists ect.)

Regards,

John M. Drake

[puma]

Hello Mat...how are you doing today
I don't believe my statement should
be considered "verbal diarrhea"
I'm just expressing an opinion like
everyone else on this forum does
...and my statement wasn't towards mma
...it was towards bjj..and I still stand firmly
behind my opinion...bjj is overrated
As far as the training goes...I plan on
getting some formal training,but i can't
make up my mind on what

The two video footage I've seen of a Gracie
in action were both posted on the kung fu
magazine forum...one was a Gracie up against
a kung fu guy and another was a Gracie fighting
a guy on a beach and each time there was a Gracie
speaking on how inferior strikes,kicks and punches
alone were useless against bjj...nonsense!!!!

[anerlich]

you hear
another Gracie in the background claiming
such and such art is inferior in comparison to
theirs....Bullsh..!!!

Just as well we practice the fine art of Wing Chun, which has no such issues of practitioners berating each other, their systems or other martial artists

In Sakuraba's case, I agree the Gracies have been world class revisionists when it comes to their bouts with him, despite the fact the he beat Renzo convincingly by breaking his arm (renzo reportedly refused to submit), and no one else seems to see much controversy about the results.

But that's a criticism of the Gracies, not BJJ. Arguably, Sakuraba does the same thing they do, albeit better than at least some of them. So saying this match bursts the BJJ bubble is nonsensical. It's about one fighter being better than another.

Go to a neighborhood in an "urban community" or the hood as
some of you would like to refer to it as and try bjj on some one
that know what their doing...and your a$$ is going to get handed

Wing Chun ain't going to give you any force field of invincibility in such situations either. What sort of moron would do this by choice in any case? A great way to get a multiple assailant beating or gunshot wound. Try stopping that with a tan sao.

[Fajing]

It's about one fighter being better than another.

Indeed.

Wing Chun ain't going to give you any force field of invincibility in such situations either. What sort of moron would do this by choice in any case? A great way to get a multiple assailant beating or gunshot wound. Try stopping that with a tan sao.

Nice. Can't disagree with that!

[chisauking]

Victor: I will tell you exactly what would happen if you try a simple wing chun combination like tan-dar on someone that's bigger then you, and can use REAL resistance, whilst both of you are using boxing gloves....western boxing.

You will be covering your centreline so the only way your opponent can hit you is to take a deter round. Since he's taking a longer path, you can step in with a simple tan-dar......but ho, ho, ho....your gloves would have cushioned most of your impact, so even though you would have intercepted and hit your opponent first, he can still retaliate. You both be exchanging blows because the gloves would cushion a lot of the impact, and this continuence of fighting is in no way a true refection of what would happen in a real fight with no gloves.

Ah, you say we wouldn't be wearing thick boxing gloves but thin open finger gloves....Then I would ask you this, what is the difference between bare knuckles and very thin gloves?

And that, my friend, is what I meant about wing chun doesn't work with birdcage and boxing gloves.

If you wrap cotton wool over a hammer, you would cushion the impact of the hammer, and the only way to induce more impact is by getting a bigger hammer. In training with boxing gloves, the only way to gain more power is by using larger movements -- like right \ rear crosses, otherwise, you would risk the continuence to exchange blows with your opponent. But guess what? You are no longer practising wing chun's centre punch. You have reverted to western boxing.

On a final note, I didn't say you shouldn't wear proctection at a very low level of training. I simply state on many occasions that you have to go beyond this stage in order to train probably the most important aspect of fighting --- the mental MIND. Proctection in training has its place, but if this is the only way you train, you will never experience the real feel.

For all the great fighters that mocked me and asked for video edvidence of my fighting skills....Show me the same edvidence of your own real fights which you have use your legs to wrap around your opponent, jumped into a kick, not use your foot at all in bridging the gape, and WON the fight......then I promise I will show you my fights. Better then that, I will welcome you to show me in person since I'm forever the learner.

I respect all TRUE experiences gain from reality, but when people on this forum base their opinion of wing chun's effectivness on TV shows, that is a different matter.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You will be covering your centreline so the only way your opponent can hit you is to take a deter round. Since he's taking a longer path, you can step in with a simple tan-dar......but ho, ho, ho....your gloves would have cushioned most of your impact, so even though you would have intercepted and hit your opponent first, he can still retaliate. You both be exchanging blows because the gloves would cushion a lot of the impact, and this continuence of fighting is in no way a true refection of what would happen in a real fight with no gloves." (csk)


LOOK, CSK...why are we even talking about big fat boxing gloves? What's the point?

.................


"Ah, you say we wouldn't be wearing thick boxing gloves but thin open finger gloves....Then I would ask you this, what is the difference between bare knuckles and very thin gloves" (csk)


***QUITE A BIT. For instance, one pair that I sometimes use when sparring are labelled "bag gloves" on the box they come in. Starting to get the picture how much smaller and lighter weight they are than boxing gloves? And half of the fingers (including the thumb) are exposed. Much thinner and lighter than boxing gloves. They won't cushion the way you describe in the tan da scenario.

But the real difference is that bareknuckled and no headgear means more realistic sense of reach and impact - both offensively and defensively...so therefore lighter contact has to be the name of the game or else injuries occur too easily and frequently.

...................


"On a final note, I didn't say you shouldn't wear protection at a very low level of training. I simply state on many occasions that you have to go beyond this stage in order to train probably the most important aspect of fighting --- the mental MIND. (csk)


***AT A LOW LEVEL...yes...protection is good. Gets the practitioner's feet wet without having to wait "years" before sparring...AND AT A HIGH LEVEL...YES AGAIN...protection is good because the other high level guy in this scenario - your sparring partner - has a better chance of hurting you than the lower level guy.

Conclusion:

Sparring with protective gear is always useful and beneficial - regardless of what level you're at.

........................


"Protection in training has its place, but if this is the only way you train, you will never experience the real feel." (csk)


***AND I ADVOCATE SPARRING (lightly)...and sometimes a "little bit rougher" (than light) without any protection also.

So that the "real feel" is experienced to a certain extent. But make no mistake about it - short of an actual streetfight...the full contact sparring with protection is much more realistic (because of the speed and power) than lighter sparring with no gear. The face cage, chest protector, etc. might save you from receiving broken teeth, jaw, black eyes, broken ribs, etc. - but the shockwaves are very real.

[chisauking]

Victor, each to their own.

But I seriously think you are denying the continuence factor in sparring, and practising with 'peace of mind', since you are both protected, you are missing out on the mental aspect of training.

With this form of sparring, the emphasis is not on developing the proper wing chun response, but get the most hardest punch in to prevent your opponent from exchanging blows.

Further more, the regular impact on your brain training with a birdcage, or helmet if you like, as opposed to a simple crippling punch to the kidneys, is far more damaging in the long term to the particpants. In other words, without helmets and gloves I can stop my opponent with one punch. With the proctection, you are both exchanging damaging blows to your brain, and the real VICTOR is the guy who can endure the bashing the longest.

[chisauking]

May I also add, as my original point, exchanging blows with a bigger and stronger opponent, your opponent would have all the advantages. More importantly, no wing chun training is taking place.

[YungChun]

With this form of sparring, the emphasis is not on developing the proper wing chun response, but get the most hardest punch in to prevent your opponent from exchanging blows.

Delivering blows in WCK should involve the disruption of the opponent's structure, his balance, his timing, his focus, his ability to respond effectively if even for a moment. This is one of the reasons we target the "center" which also relates to the opponent's center of gravity. Even if the "hit" was a push it should steal balance and remove the opponent's ability to ground until he can reposition, if he can.

With full power blows landing in this fashion, as in a fist, palm or for that matter, elbows, etc. to the chin or right part of the head can and will knock someone out with or without a face cage, headgear or mouthpiece and with almost any kind of ****ed glove, IF the person delivering it does so with correct body mechanics and timing. Boxers wear head gear and use big ole gloves and still manage to knock each other out with a single strike.

If a person just stands motionless in front of you wearing face cage gear and you are wearing NHB gloves and you can't drop the guy, knock him out or seriously stun him without him resisting, then you have no power in your technique and you almost certainly would not be able to do any better without the gloves and head gear, in fact you probably would just hurt your hand.

Anyone who has sparred with hard contact knows that despite using this kind of gear, powerful shots still hurt, debilitate and can knock you out, serious injuries can happen and the gear has lots of limits, meaning in some cases it doesn't protect you at all, depending on angle and target. The ability is still very much there when applying something like Tan Da to ring the opponent's bell which when used with correct timing and position is all that is needed to open the door to a fluid flow of follow up moves which can get harder and nastier with each subsequent stroke.

The gear simply provides a modicum of safety and can be used with care to provide realistic combative feedback under varying levels of contact and stress.

Use of no gear tells me that folks really ain't going there...

Further more, the regular impact on your brain training with a bird cage, or helmet if you like, as opposed to a simple crippling punch to the kidneys, is far more damaging in the long term to the participants. In other words, without helmets and gloves I can stop my opponent with one punch. With the proctection, you are both exchanging damaging blows to your brain, and the real VICTOR is the guy who can endure the bashing the longest.

So your advising folks to not use any gear but spar with hard contact to the head/body/legs? There are folks who do this and this results in broken bones, broken faces and other serious injuries on a regular basis. Is this how you train??? Hmmmmmm? Do tell!

I agree it is important to train smart with gear or without. Folks should try to minimize heavy and constant trauma to the brain/head. That's what good teachers are there for and why there should be structure in the training and a sensible progression based on the goals of the student and teacher.

[Edmund]

May I also add, as my original point, exchanging blows with a bigger and stronger opponent, your opponent would have all the advantages. More importantly, no wing chun training is taking place.

Sparring with equipment is a method of practicing fighting with a partner.
Not a real fight. So you don't just exchange blows and try beat each other up. It's just protecting you from a strike that could otherwise INJURE YOU.

They aren't truly your opponent. You're giving each other a chance to practice your fighting skills. They can still be hurt, pads or not, so you don't try to kill them. Guess you never trained like that.

Doesn't mean you don't do any light sparring without protective gear either!
Of course you work with gear and without it. Get it?

Do you hit your sparring partners in the kidneys to cripple them without any protective equipment? Yes or No?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Victor, each to their own.

But I seriously think you are denying the continuence factor in sparring, and practising with 'peace of mind', since you are both protected, you are missing out on the mental aspect of training.

With this form of sparring, the emphasis is not on developing the proper wing chun response, but get the most hardest punch in to prevent your opponent from exchanging blows.

Further more, the regular impact on your brain training with a birdcage, or helmet if you like, as opposed to a simple crippling punch to the kidneys, is far more damaging in the long term to the particpants. In other words, without helmets and gloves I can stop my opponent with one punch. With the proctection, you are both exchanging damaging blows to your brain, and the real VICTOR is the guy who can endure the bashing the longest.

***WHAT MAKES YOU THINK that I'm willing to just trade blows when sparring with gear? I still use wing chun principles (and techniques): the goal being to come in an make it so that I can hit him and he can't hit me.

Like I told you - when you're talking full power shots and kicks...even with gear you don't want to trade blows - because the gloves are light and thin and the impact shock waves hurt. (The same with full power kicks.

As I said earlier - short of an actual streetfight - this type of sparring is very much a MIND OVER MATTER thing...you can still get hurt even with gear when it's full speed, full power.

[chisauking]

The intention of sparring with proctection is good, but unfortunately you are missing out on a lot of wing chun.

If the protection is too great, you end up with a totally unrealistic experience, and inducing absolutely no FEAR in the equation.

Too thin a proctection and there would be no differnce to pulled bare-knuckles.

As to whether I've dropped opponents in sparring -- yes, many times. The last time I'd torn the ligiaments in my own ankles from sparring with full force and no proctection with kicks. Did I cry? No, I simply accepted that it's the nature of the beast in a fighting style.

You people carry on with your safety fighting system, and watch the NHB fighting of make belief on TV. Great stuff with pop corns and coke!