Pak Mei , Lung Ying , Hakka Tong Long , Fukien White Crane ?

[Firehawk4]

mantis108 wrote this what is peoples opinion of this
Of a side note, Dongjiang Longxing could have been derived from YCHF; while, Bak Mei (white eyebrow) could have been influenced by Jiangxi or Hakka Tanglang that might be related to the YCBH. BTW, Longxing's Lam family first learned San Bu Tui (3 steps push) from Abbot Gi Seem's student Wong Kun (Haifeng Si or Hoi Fung Si). It is highly likely that San Bu Tui is a variation of White crane's Sanjan (three battles). This is why IMHO eventhough LX and BM are practically sister styles, they do appear differently physically and in their approaches to things. So you see, we are all connected to varying degrees

[Ao Qin]

Hi Firehawk - could you please explain about what these mean?;

YCHF
YCBH

Thank you,

AQ

[fiercest tiger]

YCBH = Yong Chun bak Hok?

[Firehawk4]

YCHF Yong Chun He Fa ( Yong Chun Countys Crane Method )YCBH Yong Chun Bai He ( Fujian White Crane ) This might help Mantis108 also wrote this
In one late Ming early Qing TCMA record, Song Taizu (First Emperor of Song dynasty) was said to have recuited his personal guards, from Szechuan which is geographically close to Tibet, who were apt at Tongbi calling them the internal ranks; hence the term internal art began. There is also evidence to suggest that Tongbi was pretty active in Shangxi provence since Song dynasty. The west of China is the inland and more mountianous terrains. So it is logical that Tongbi migrated from west to north (ie Bejing, Hebei - the capital of
the last two dynasties).

Duan Da (short strike) which seems to be a synonym of Fanziquan is a totally different story. Duan Da seem to be more diversed than Changquan in that it becames many different styles. It would seem that it's has a strong base in areas such as Che Jiang, Jiangsu, Nan Jing (southern capital - the capital of the First Emperor of Ming dynasty). These are coastal provinces. Henan province seems to want to lay claim to the origin of Fanzi by ways of General Yu Fei being a prominant figure and native fo the province who was said to have taught his troops martial arts (ie Yu Shi San Shou, Xingyi, etc..). Yong Chun Bai He is highly likely derived from this. But Yong Chun Bai He's former self (Yong Chun He Fa) could have been a derivetive of Fanziquan that was practiced White Lotus Cult militia. Fanziquan has been a grass root folk arts through out most of TCMA history IMHO.

Anyway, Yong Chun He Fa (Yong Chun County's Crane Method) Based in Yong Chun, Fujian, eventually became Shandong Tanglang (praying mantis in Laiyang, Shandong province) to the north and Dongjiang Longxing (dragon style in East river region, Guangdong) to the deep south IMHO. A coastal migration happens in spreading the art and the flavor changes through out the migration.

Yong Chun Bai He, Dongjian Longxing and even Wing Chun acknowledge a matrichal origin to varying degrees. This in my mind echo certain cult phyche that's derived from the White Lotus Cult (ie Mu Sheng Lao Mo - the unborn mother)

[Firehawk4]

Another pssible origin could be Southern Tai Chor (Taizhu) or Grand Ancestor style , look at the pictures at these two websites and see the resembalance between Southern Tai Chor and Jook Lum Southern Mantis Tai Chor uses a old version of Sam Chian form and of course Southern Mantis uses Som Bo Gin form .
http://www.geocities.com/kungfu_gala...n/TaiChor.html
http://www.ckfa.com/

[Firehawk4]

I am also wondering if this art called Fong Yang or Beggars art is the same that Cheung Lai Chun learned that the Hakka practiced ?
http://www.geocities.com/kungfu_gala.../FongYang.html

[mantis108]

Grandmaster Cheung Lai Chuan (1888 - 1964 CE) first learned Kung Fu from Liu Men Jiao which IMHO either related to or is the same with Jiangxi's Liu Men Jiao. Hakka people tends to name pugilistic styles as Jiao (ie Lee Jiao Jiao, Zhu Jia Jiao, etc) so Liu Men Jiao seem to fit in that category. BTW, these Hakka pugilistic styles also tends to have strong spiritual inclination [re: 3 treasures of Hakka Kung Fu - puglisim, spiritual Kung Fu, Unicorn Dance]; thus, the designation Jiao is a reflection of that IMHO.

We all know that Bak Mei's alter has "Wind Fire Hall" banner. This is properly because of GM Cheung's background in Liu Men Jiao with Lam Shek. His first Sifu was Lam Shek who taught him Cross Fist (Sup Jee). GM Cheung nick named it Shek Si Sup Jee (Master Shek's Sup Jee) to commorate it. It is of note that this isn't the story that Fut Shan Bak Mei holds to. Since I have nothing to do with the Fut Shan Bak Mei, I would not comment further on this.

Mantis108

[WOW]

Sup Chee is Sup Chee! Siu, Tai, Shek Sup Chee are just variations of Sup Chee. CLC did not alter the name of Sup Chee. The full name of Sup Chee is Sup Chee Kau Da Kuen - roughly translated Cross Lock Hit. Sup Chee is not an original PM set but a set from Beggars Art, adapted by CLC into PM using PM power generation principles.

CLC PM has no relation to Futsan PM and has no need to distinguish it self as such.

[fiercest tiger]

Wow,

What about Ying Jow sup jee kol da same form and Sek Sze?

Why have so many variation too?

Garry

[WOW]

good questions - why is there so many variations? Why do people make up forms? Why do people change forms, techniques, etc.

I can only gather that as school you need curriculum, as such you need subjects to complete the curriculum, hence breakup of certain sets. The benefits are it makes easier to teach and let the student become proficient in some techniques before moving on.

[Shaolin Master]

Liu men jiao (or Lau men) is what was mentioned as so called beggar's style above.

What must be noted however is that Li jiaquan (Lee Gar) of the Li Yi tradition (Huizhou) was also studied by CLC.

Finally the original basics of Lum Hap (Sam Bu Tui and thereafter Gao BuTui) complete the Bai Mei.

Futshan Bak Mei I am unsure what they claim in the US but it is still related to CLC. It is basically impossible otherwise.

In terms of geographical means: Meizhou has a high concentration of Hakka martial arts they all differing features at the origins are different. When I lived in Jiangxi I seldom saw Hakka (Kejia) martial arts in the northern, it was only when I went south jiangxi to the Wanan region that I met a group of hakka masters and their martial arts were fairly different to those that I saw in Meizhou.

A lot village based family styles have evolved through time. Most of the Wanan masters however only practiced 3 or so 'short' hand forms and a weapon.

Guangdong hakka martial arts with a large array of forms especially varieties of the same one are typically derived from teachers that had to teach and thereby chopped to make simpler basic forms (e.g. Zhi Bu and Xiao Shi Zi) or added forms to extend the teachings (e.g. Meng hu xia shan and wu xing mo).

Regards
Wu Chanlong.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Shaolin Master,

Have you seen the 3 step push or know it? If so how much different and similar or can you see why CLC made the form.

How you been these days?

Garry

[WOW]

What must be noted however is that Li jiaquan (Lee Gar) of the Li Yi tradition (Huizhou) was also studied by CLC.

Finally the original basics of Lum Hap (Sam Bu Tui and thereafter Gao BuTui) complete the Bai Mei.

Futshan Bak Mei I am unsure what they claim in the US but it is still related to CLC. It is basically impossible otherwise.

CLC exchanged some PM for Lee Gar weapons forms, noted the pole form.

Can you tell us more about 3 step push.

How is Futshan BM related to CLC when they claim otherwise?

[Shaolin Master]

CLC practised Huizhou Lijiaquan which is the style of Li Yi (1708-1793), this style remained within the Li family for generations. The forms include Baguaquan, Sanmenquan, Shizun, XiaoShizi, DaShizi, Sanshouquan etc. Its specialities ly in its stick methods: Dantou Gun, Shuangtou Gun, Danshuangtou Gun, Zhonglan Gun, Zhanglong Gun etc...

With regards to San bu tui, well understand the core of Jiubutui (CLC Bakmei) and Shiliudong (LYK Dragon) and it is easy to comprehend, however it is likely to be derived from the older Fujian martial arts as Mantis 108 alluded to. I have seen a san bu tui (not necessarily the same as when Lum Hap studied) but there is no such set/form, rather it was some basics of a style Nanzhi quan practised in villages close to Shantou.

Regarding Foshan Baimei, well in essence a student of a disciple of CLC basically taught in Foshan (I think surname Liu) which later became Foshan Baimei. I am unsure of any other factual account.

Garry,
I have been well mainly busy with corporate life and family not so much the jianghu.

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Fung Ngan]

Hi Shaolin master,

Excellent posts.
But are you sure about the date of Li Yi (李義)? Zhang Liquan (CLC) was born in 1880, if Li Yi past in 1793 they must have mist each other? Our do you mean an other Li Jia master?

One of the apprentices of Zhang Li Quan that has taught Bai Mei in Foshan was the well-known Xia Hanxiong-夏漢雄 (Ha Hon Hung). This lineage is still alive in the Foshan Jing Wu (see url http://www.dragonrojo.net/Bai-Mei/BaiMei.html ). Although is branch is not what is called “Foshan Bai Mei”.


-----------------------
www.pakmeipai.nl