nice clip of ShiDeJain

[David Jamieson]

Sorry, it is incorrect to assume that you should not attempt to find applications on your own. In fact it is standard practice in many traditional teaching formats to allow discovery to the student so that the process of achieving kungfu is real as opposed to spoon fed.

teachers offer keys, you open the door yourself.

Every ma teacher I've had has encourage me to find applications besides those which have been shown. Occaisionally, the teacher will provide guidance on some of the applications that perhaps you didn't think of. There are definitely multiple applications to any given motion in martial art because it is dependent upon your position in a confrontation.

[WOW]

wow!

I used to think foot stomp was good and used it in training, but my sifu said I was too slow and gave up groud!

You got to start somewhere with applications. Most techniques will have a variety of applications and generally basic ones are taught at the beginning until the student has reached a level of proficiency where more advance apps can be applied.

[rickyscaggs]

If I were to study a foreign language and my teacher only taught me how to pronounce words and phrases and maybe a couple sentences, I wouldn't really be learning the language. I'd need to learn what those words mean and learn grammar as well. Am I supposed to figure out what the words mean and guess how to use them the best I can? What kind of teacher is that? I know how the language sounds but I have no clue on how to hold a conversation with it because I was told to figure it out on my own. I could show off my pronunciation skills which may get very good. But when it came to a situation where I had to use this language in a conversation with someone, I'd be totally embarrassed.

Time to find a new teacher who knows how to TEACH.

[GeneChing]

I ask every teacher I train under how to use such and such. They've always told me, including the monks. Actually, most of the monks just thumped me with it. After a while, I stopped asking and starting looking more, so I wouldn't get thumped so often. Now I only ask if I really can't see the app in a form. But usually, I can now. I find my own apps too, mostly becuase I'm not fast/agile/powerful enough to make all the apps work verbatim to the masters' execution. I've got a quirky physique, so I got to modify stuff to fit.

As for Dejian's apps, it's pretty harsh to judge him based on a short video. I'm still curious about where that video came from. And I think there's some decent stuff in that video. Sure, it's playful, but we can't all practice like steroided MMA guys all the time. The critics here just want to bash Shaolin. FWIW, the monks do tend to laugh after they've thumped you. I'm not sure why that is. It's a playful laugh usually, not an evil maniacal bwahahaha kind of laugh (although I'm generalizing here - I've heard a few evil monk laughs too).

[bruceleroy/WFH]

to me,what the monk ShiDeJain was showing was just different techinques on one simple attack........but if you look closely,the opponent is actually not using the same moves over and ove,plus do you even now how many techinques this monk probably knows,too many so he just picked some out of his head and you are not happy,people can be very judgemental...also since i got this from my other forum i am going to post what i put on there.......:

Well,at first i started to view the point of angel where as the fighting applications were "unrealistic" which is quite true....BUT,when you point out that the monks parries or ducks are misleading and don't work,i think your quite wrong because angel says is he was to duck that way,i could easily throw a low kick to the face,.....WRONG,because of the speed of the shaolin monk,you think he is gonna throw a low kick that fast....no,by the time you re-track your arm back and get ready to throw out the kick,it would be too,too late b/c first you would be off balance,second,the monk seems "handy" or pretty quick so the duck or the monks evading would be over and he would be already in normal fighting position again.

ALso,some of the techinques look simple such as the first chi-na or "seize and control" techinque he did,but see those techinques are the ones that work best,simple and easy and those are the one people commonly demostrate because they are the best to use in almost any demostration or position.

And then when the monk ducks the punch during the second techinque he demostrates seem unrealistic but to me its not...One simple thing the monk did before he blocked the incoming punch,he parried to the side slightly so that he could set up the block with his hand,when he parries underneath the other incoming punch and plants his foot on the opponents side....So,when he "swong" his arm underneath the punch to the back/side of the opponents head,he could easily take him down by pushing his head on the wrong side of his body alinment and where his head goes,his body will do the same causeing him to quickly trip of the monks planted leg and topple or fall over it...

And to add,some of the punches peformed or thrown by the opponent or "foreigner" made it very hard for him to counter-attack with a low kick,almost impossible[plus,when really fighting,trust me,the monks hands would not be planted at his side like they were in the beginning of the film]To me,that was like 4% of what a real master of gong fu is capable of doing,and that was just a "demo

[Pk_StyLeZ]

ok please dont compare kung fu to learnign a new langauge..totally different....

maybe in the modern monkey form you see the *monks* perform now has no application, but im pretty sure the traditional has applications in it. and from what i see, he look like he is fighting *traditional way*

that one moves he does, jumping aside..and then swing his arm back..the application he does before the first *foot stepping*..that really reminds me of monkey and look like a monkey
and also..the BUTT attack..lolz

im not going to argue anymore about learning your own application or not, everyone has their own opinion. and i shared mines =) agreed or not i can care less =)

[rickyscaggs]

I wasn't speaking about this particular monk and his teaching. I don't know what he teaches. I'm talking about those who say you should find your own stuff without the teacher teaching you. At least in the beginning stage you NEED it. Maybe after that you can find your own but when you start to reach a higher level you will again NEED a higher level teacher show you how to do things and how they work or don't work. Otherwise you're not learning your style.

Don't compare learning a new language to learning martial arts? Why not? First of all, it's the point I'm trying to make. You were unable to pick that out of the analogy just like poor martial arts teaching. You can't just pull things out your bum or you're not learning how to use your style, but learning an skeleton of a martial art and making up your own way to use it.

[rickyscaggs]

Gene

The critics here just want to bash Shaolin? That's retarded. The critics here want to point out what poor teaching and training is. We weren't speaking specifically about anyone or any style. If someone points out a bad thing that's not bashing. If I say Shaolin is full of poor teachers and crap applications or no applications at all because you have to make them up yourself, then I'm probably bashing Shaolin. I'm speaking in general.

[richard sloan]

anyone will tell you the best way to learn a language is naturally, without text books and rote memorization lessons, vocabulary developes along conceptual lines as opposed to being compiled in lists and that is why there is usually big differences from those who learn language as a native speaker and those who are textbook.

in martial arts both methods are employed. if you just expect to learn by rote, with everything spoon fed you, you will suck, especially since nothing in a fight is necessarily rote. I've personally known a lot of ma's who have had their rote ass handed to them in a handbasket. personally, coming from that background, I prefer to ditch the scripts.

if I had to say there was anything unrealistic about this exchange it would be to say there was no resistance and it is relatively easy to deal with one thrown punch, successive attacks tend to repudiate application training, which is why some monks say that they just knock you out, despite your silly tricks. that is because, especially amongst experienced or knowledgeable ma's, applications are like cat and mouse games.

particular to shaolin I would say they do not feel you need to know anything at all in the beginning, especially not applications, and neither forms- no where near the very beginning at all. what they feel you need are basics, endless, endless basics- strengthening, quick muscle building, stretching, and conditioning basics. Many of the basics don't even have martial application which I think also contributes to many of the 'it's just wushu" comments.

I was told, right before being whacked with a staff and chuckled at, that it takes 3-5 yrs of hard, daily practice of basics before you are even really ready for anything serious. I'd hazard to say, when you are talking to people who grew up splitting their knuckles open just to make fists in the winter, that our ideas of training are basically a joke.

now that may suck, but that is the way it is.

you don't "make up" the applications, but many would say they reveal themselves, others require guidance of instructors.

the problem with many students in shaolin is they can not stand to endure 3-5 years of just simple basics.

pk, nice picking up on the step as opposed to stomp. the step plants your opponent.

[WanderingMonk]

As for Dejian's apps, it's pretty harsh to judge him based on a short video. I'm still curious about where that video came from.

unless I am mistaken, I remember you posting a reply on the board saying that you will have the 3 part dejian documentary ready for a friend when he drop by your office (this was a while back).

These clips of him playing with the westerner demoing his app came straight from that three part tv documentary produced by CCTV. I remember that segment of tv documentary (the whole series was twenty five episodes) won some kind of prize at Italy.

[Shaolinlueb]

those were pretty good. sure at the end it left him "open" but he wasnt continueing on with the move. he is fast too. looks like he was just toying with the westerner too.

[GeneChing]

YouKnowWho: Those are fine questions, but if a student came to me with all that right after I showed him or her something, I'd probably just smile and walk away. Ok, actually, my reaction would depend on the student's level. If it was a new concept and the student asking couldn't grasp it at all, then I'd probably back track to something less difficult and write off those comments off to some one trying to cover lack of skill with questions. If it was someone that could emulate the move fairly quickly, then we'd move on to counters and training equipment. If they can't get the initial move, there's no use moving on to counters. Of course, I'm speaking very generally about pedagogical methods and no where are those written in stone. The character of the student determines everything. I would teach applications before form to someone who only wants to learn how to fight. I would teach form before applications to anyone else.

WanderingMonk: Hmm, I have seen that but I don't remember that scene. Perhaps I don't have all three episodes. Perhaps I just got hit in the head really hard and that synaptic path was severed. I've seen way too many Shaolin documentaries. They're all blending together. I'll have to dig that one out a look at it again when I get the chance...

rickyscaggs: Retarded, eh? I know you are but what am I?

[jmd161]

Monk seems to know his techniques, a lil Shaolin monkey perhaps?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7503&q=kung+fu

Is this that documentry where the guy travels and trains at shaolin 6 months a yr? I think I saw part of this on the discovery channel before.


jeff

[Faruq]

The guy should enter Pride or the UFC. Finally TMC would be vindicated.

[jmd161]

The guy should enter Pride or the UFC. Finally TMC would be vindicated.

What's TMC?


Jeff