Correction to Wing Chun Unity Article - Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine

[martyg]

This is my last response to this thread, because it appears everyone has said what they wanted to, and it seems to be turning in to a flame fest - which is not my intent. Those that have responded from the VTM camp seem more intent at bickering on tangents rather than addressing the original purpose of the letter. Which was simply to correct that the dates mentioned in the article as VTM events as actually being my events.


A few things:


John Sterling: I hold no ill will to anyone, as I've stated before. I also don't know if you're refering to my letter in your mention of "attacking the VTM" or some of the responses here. If you're refering to my letter, I resent it as it was not presented as an attack. Perhaps, as Don mentioned on the WCML, possibly what was published was different than what you submitted. He did mention Benny and the VTM helped contribute with the final draft and submission. The final product mentioned the VTM more than the 2 times you're saying was in the article version you wrote - which in itself was not the issue. I have no direct issue with the VTM and Benny, they certainly deserve any credit they seek. Again, the only issue I took out of the article (which was a nicely written and well presented article) were the dates of the Wing Chun Friendship Seminar being presented as a VTM event.

Chango and Tony - Chango, yes you were an attendee at the Ohio event. With regards to your comment that Benny doesn't have to announce about VTM excursions at every event, that is true. Once again though, that was not the point. People like Tony and your self should not take exception then (to the point of eye rolling and posting supposed supporting links) when people question if its official or not when he does not announce it - they go hand in hand. If you don't want people to question, then announce it. Unless Tony is used to reacting in a drama fashion - you seemed a little more level headed when I met you the one time. Furthermore, arguing about "well, if someone wanted to call theirs this or that" is pointless and completely confusing the issue - which was that the events claimed in the beginning of the article were actually my WCFS events. As clearly stated in the letter that started this thread, we hoped people would want to take up and present similar seminars. So why would I take issue with someone doing that? It seems arguing about ownership of the "title" is more like an attempt to go off on a tangent. Those dates and seminars on those dates were my seminars. Aruging about ownership of those is not on the table, and downright silly. On the far off chance someone wanted to challenge me for ownership of the specific series - its well and publicly recorded (including in various internet archives I have no control over, such as rec.martial-arts archives on google groups - the archive.org site (which i posted previously), and others) and a matter of public record. Intellectual Property for the series can be clearly demonstrated, and yes - I have several close friends and family members in that law field that I've checked with a number of times over the years, including with regards to ownership of the videos. But again, why would I ever have to deal with someone wanting to go to the trouble to claim the series for their own?

[pvwingchun]

Marty

What was said was not directed at you but others and not only here but in the lists as well. I clearly understand the intent of your letter and admire you for speaking up.

I am also through with this thread and more than likely this forum altogether.

John

[Chango]

PVwingchun,
It seems that the point of the article has been wasted on a few. It is quite simple that some will always some thing to say no matter what the VTM is involved in. I think the work being done by Grose Sifu and yourself is great thing and is right in sink with the VTM stands for. I appluade this article and any others like it. These type of wizzing matches are some peoples forte. alot of people love to just arm-chair quarterback. this is a fact that has to be excepted the wing chun community. It's a sad true but I think gatherings like the one in AZ is a step in the right direction and shedding light of those who are willing step up to the task of getting over themselves and tne trash talk and meet up and share healthy dialogue.I hope to get the opportunity meet you in person some time soon. I think it would be a rich experience.

I'll predict right now that the HFY website forum will soon be off-limits to all those not part of their association.

Too much transparency will take away any semblence of objectivity and "unity talk" from Meng and expose too much of what the game is all about.

Victor,
Yep your quite the CSI here man. LOL! It's more like X-files!
Come on man don't be so paranoid. I guess there is some kind of conspiracy to take over the Wing chun world!LOL! You are free to go to that forum and join just like the next guy. You have simply choose not to do so. If you have something to say on there just say it. If not then well you know the rest. LOL!

[Chango]

Marty,
Once again I'm just sadden that this thread has been used as a cheap shot on the Sifu Meng, the VTM and the article. Some seem to want to use it as a stepping stone to do so. At this point I think it is clear who is doing this. Maybe you should have contacted the articles author and or the VTM to possibly clear up any issue about the ownership of a siminar or gathering etc... And if a discrepency was found in what was written proper action could be taken. But thats just how I probrably would have done things. But that just me!

But hey I'm always one that can see the half full glass! I hope this thread does get a few that would have possibly missed this article to maybe keep an eye out for it and read it. I hope it helps in Grose Sifu's efforts in outreach to other lineages. I think I'm done with this thread as well. I hope LOL!

[Bob8]

Chango: At this point I think it is clear who is doing this.

What do you mean? People from all backgrounds are saying these
things for a long time. Perhaps you should open your eyes to the
possibility that the VTM is not as objective as they say they are
and the name implies; Ving Tsun Museum.

Anyway, the issues were clear for almost everybody besides the VTM...
andrew S, Bob8, Victor, Anerlich, GFH, Ghost, KJ, Marty to name a few.
Perhaps you should try to see how the VTM looks through others their
eyes.

The VTM could be a great organisation and perhaps it will become
a great organisation... I seriously hope it because the idea is great.

[ghostofwingchun]

Perhaps this is tangent . . . but I am wondering now that issue of friendship seminars has been brought up . . . is why are they a good thing . . . why does wc need them? For example jujitsu does not have friendship seminars . . . nor does judo, muay thai, and so on . . . I am wondering if need for friendship arises from lack of genuine competition within wc . . . any way it is just a thought . . . I am still unsure about it . . . any ideas any one?

Thanks,

Ghost

[kj]

Marty

What was said was not directed at you but others and not only here but in the lists as well. I clearly understand the intent of your letter and admire you for speaking up.

I am also through with this thread and more than likely this forum altogether.

John

John, I hope that's not so. I value your input, and sure there are many other readers - however silent - that do as well.

FWIW, I still haven't read the article in question, so my comment above was in no way a critique of it. I thinks it is phenomenal that folks like yourself are reaching out to the broader community as you are through gatherings for exchange and sharing. You set a great example.

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

Ghost -

Except for a few orgs (Gracie Barra and Nova Uniao often will not attend each other's events due to squabbling among their leaders), almost any seminar in BJJ is a friendship seminar. When a world-class athlete or trainer comes to town, you will almost always see people from every school and affiliation sign up and train together. The same has been true, at least locally, when internation Judo players and Russian judo experts have done seminars.

This is, unfortunately, not as often true for WCK (and Kung Fu in general). Usually seminars are restricted to affiliates, or attended only by affiliated students. Marty (who we can't forget was something of an 'enthusiastic' TWC man at the time) thought it might be a good idea to try and get beyond that. And one-hot-piece-mamma if he wasn't right.

[Mr Punch]

Sounds like Marty and Rene put on a good gathering over there... I'd love to have the opportunity to go to things like that, and the VTMs gatherings, and Alan Orr's ones in the UK among others. Also sounds like Benny Meng thought so too.

Doesn't sound like anybody's attacking the VTM, or that anybody wants to copywrite the idea of a friendship gathering or even say that it was an original idea above and beyond any other gathering.

On an unrelated note, also sounds like some people need to read the bit on the back of that fantastically entertaining piece of Shaw Brothers' style fantasy tripe, Legends of Wing Chun, where it says 'novel' and 'fiction'. (You can ask the publishers to use that quote on the back of the next edition cover if you like Rene! )

But that's all just outside opinions from a wing chunner on the other side of the world. [shrugs] Some of you do look rather silly! And to a non-wingchunner this would seem typically like the Women's Institute arguing about jam recipes rather than a group of noble and esteemed kung fu lineages from the same style!

And one-hot-piece-mamma if he wasn't right.

So, what do I have to do for this?

[anerlich]

Rene is correct.

In BJJ it's common to visit other schools, sometimes on a weekly basis, and most seminars by BB's, especially ones with surnames like Gracie or Machado, are attended by people from all over. Everyone gets on, the notion of "lineage" is basically absurd in that context.

I've attended a semi-regular annual gathering of different OMAers run by my first KF instructor from Canberra. It's been going on since the early 1980's. Over the years guys from various styles of KF (WC, Pai Lum, Xingyi, Taiji, etc.), Karate, Hapkido, JKD, TKD have attended and everyone gets on fine. I've done comparative demos with reps of other WC lineages, and enjoyed swapping war stories. It used to get a half-column in some of the Aussie MA rags, but no one bothers any more, if it got too popular and high profile the fun would probably go out of it.

Seems to me the greater the urge for publicity and the less diversity amongst practitioners at such gatherings, the less worthwhile and less pleasant they become.

[reneritchie]

that fantastically entertaining piece of Shaw Brothers' style fantasy tripe, Legends of Wing Chun, where it says 'novel' and 'fiction'. (You can ask the publishers to use that quote on the back of the next edition cover if you like Rene! )

Glad you liked it! Will do! And if you have the time/inclination, that would look sweet on the Amazon.com review page

[anerlich]

Rene,

I just got my copy on Monday, will write reviews here and on Amazon, when i finish it (on about Chapter 7 now) and time permits. Pretty good so far.

[reneritchie]

Thanks Andrew!

[GeneChing]

You know, it's funny, I'd been thinking that this forum has been a little quiet lately and now this pops up - echoes of some longstanding flame war, complaints on the mag, forum members threatening to leave (which in my mind is tantamount of retreating ).

I'll be honest with you all. I've never studied Wing Chun despite having a tremendous amount of respect for the style. I've read a lot about it, of course. I've read several of the more popular books, seen videos, seen demos and tournaments, hung out with a lot of Wing Chun people. I feel I have an intellectual grasp of the theory (whatever that means) mostly because it's so parallel to fencing theory. And of course, there are more wing chun articles submitted to our magazine than any other style, so I read a lot. But the reason I've never studied it is because I've always been put off by the feuds.

We run a Wing Chun article in almost every issue, plus an additional Wing Chun focus special ever so often. Our general policy here is not to get into feuds. Other magazines have tried that - stirring up controversy to 'sell mags' - frankly, that equation doesn't work for us. Right now, I have about a dozen Wing Chun submissions form various authors waiting to be reviewed. I certainly want to continue to support Wing Chun in the magazine, but if you all keep feuding about it, it's rather bothersome. This is not to say I won't take the criticism. I've published articles that are incorrect in the past and probably will in the future. These things happen at any periodical. Now I'm in this weird position here at the mag. All egos and flame wars aside, what would you do?

[reneritchie]

My all-time "favorite" was when a magazine (not Kung Fu/Qigong) had an ongoing fued in their letter's column about whether the founder of Wing Chun Kuen was Ng Mui or Wumei.

Who's this Wu Mei, one fiery writer demanded to know, Ng Mui is the only acknowledged founder of Wing Chun Kuen!

Not so, replied another, Ng Mui is just a myth, everyone knows it's Wumei!!

Sigh...

Back in the day...




(For those not versed in Chinese, Ng Mui and Wumei are the same characters, one is just the Cantonese pronounciation, the other Mandarin...)