Correction to Wing Chun Unity Article - Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine

[reneritchie]

Apologies for the absence, I'm in the middle of super-crunch deadlines through the end of the month, even training has suffered *sigh*

Marty is incorrect. I was only lucky he asked me to help out. The Friendship Seminars, every bit the pioneering water shed event in the WIng Chun World the formation of the WCML was, rests squarely on his Seinfeld-on-steroids-like shoulders.

He came up with the idea and I was only too happy to help.

As to the rest, I don't have access to the magazine, I haven't even seen one on the shelves in Montreal in years (Gene, afraid of a little ice and snow?? ). I'll try to hunt it down, but given the spirt of the event, a spirit we all, Marty, Ray, Benny and the VTM, Bob Stevens, John Crescione, Moy Yat's students, Garette Gee and his students, Kathy Jo and crew, Hendrik, Robert Chu and crew, Jerry McKinley, and so many others expended so much time and effort and extended unprecendented good-will towards, I'd hope people would see it as an example we could all strive towards more often, and not just another online squabble.

Gene has been nothing but professional in each and every dealing I've ever had with him. If he feels any factual error was made, or any erroneous impression created, (and we all make 'em), hopefully a simple errata can patch it up.

Rgds,

[Ultimatewingchun]

I certainly hope that Gene Ching will publish Marty's article setting the historical record straight about the Friendship Seminars - as it is the only ethical thing to do.

There is no other way to deal with this kind of thing, unfortunately. It has to be opposed and brought to light enough times so that the truth eventually prevails.

[Chango]

Point 1- the term "friendship siminar" has not been copy written. Last I checked no one owns rights to the term used to discribe a get together of different lineages. Marty's and Rene's get togethers was not even mentioned so no one was "taking credit".

point 2- there had been gatherings of different Wing chun lineages at the VTM before the said date of the WCML's event.

point 3 - this sort of bickering is the reason these types of get together need to happen more often in the Wing chun world.

point 4 - I don't think Sifu Meng need's to announce every time he goes to a martial art event "this is official VTM business" LOL! If you invite him you've invited the curator of the wing chun museum to your Wing chun event guess what? ROFLOL

point 5- I was one of the guys around during the siminars and on the WCML.

point 6 - this bickering and sorts seems to do quite the opposite of what the article was intended to display.

Marty please write your article I hope it get's published. I also hope it can display to the rest of the martial arts world that Wing chun people can get along as this article did.

[Bob8]

Let's be honest here. The VTM is trying to slowly re-write some of the WCK history/legends. Some have seen it all before. They will only succeed if everybody is to tired, afraid or any other reason to oppose them.

Surely they are also doing good things but the VTM could do a much
much better job to unite the WCK world. And actually it is now (the last years)
into dividing the WCK world even more.

[Bob8]

Chango,

Chango: Point 1- the term "friendship siminar" has not been copy written.

Nobody said it was....

Chango: point 2- there had been gatherings of different Wing chun lineages at the VTM before the said date of the WCML's event.

That is not the problem Marty stated. And of course in Marty his
words: "I think you mean the Oct. '98 one, the May 2 - 4 1997 gathering of Moy Yat sifus (which also included Moy Yat himself, and Yip Ching as a "techincal advisor"), hardly constitutes the format and purpose of the Friendship Seminars."

Chango: point 3 - this sort of bickering is the reason these types of get together need to happen more often in the Wing chun world.

Agreed it should happen more often. Do not agree that this sort of bickering
is the reason... would be better if the VTM would publish more accurate
articles..

Chango: point 4 - I don't think Sifu Meng need's to announce every time he goes to a martial art event "this is official VTM business" LOL! If you invite him you've invited the curator of the wing chun museum to your Wing chun event guess what? ROFLOL

Perhaps he should have done that a couple of years ago when the VTM
was still standing in Child shoes.

Chango: point 5- I was one of the guys around during the siminars and on the WCML.

So?

Chango: point 6 - this bickering and sorts seems to do quite the opposite of what the article was intended to display.

Yes, thanks to the way the VTM writes the article. I am not sure it is bickering.
It is more like getting the facts straight.

[pvwingchun]

I have had enough of reading this for the past few days.

Marty this is not in any way meant to take away from you or what you are trying to do, or attacking what you are looking at doing or have said about past gatherings, but I must speak my mind now. Please go forward with your recollection of the events that happened in the past. I understand where you are coming from. Good luck and I am hoping others don't attack you like they have this article. I am sure there are many out there who would like to read about the gatherings that you were involved in and put together. Although somewhere I am sure someone will take issue with it. So a word of advice make it bland and don't put in any names or facts and for that matter don't use your name as the author.

Neither the VTM nor Sifu Meng wrote the article I did so stop attacking the VTM and Sifu Meng, attack me, I was the primary author, I wrote the article. Sifu Meng's input was sought out because his students were there first and second of all because we knew he could help to get it published. The authors are listed in the fashion they are because I opted to do it that way to show respect to those involved who have practiced longer than I have. Everyone listed had input and suggested or made minor changes, but I am responsible for the bulk of the article. I am sorry if I have gotten one or two facts wrong, although I am not sure they are it is simply a matter of semantics and viewpoints. Again as stated in an earlier post I wasn't around then so I don't know the players or the particulars.

Everyone seems to be upset about one sentence, maybe two in the article (IMO), at least as per my copy the VTM is mentioned only twice, I have not seen the article in print and at this point do not care to. As a whole this shows the pettiness of many of you here and your desire to tear down anything that is not of your making or doing. I beleive that just the mention of the VTM is the whole problem. Read into those few sentences what you will but semantics are the root of the problem. For that matter if one word in one sentence gets changed then no one has a problem (change "led" to "has been involved with"). Except that those of you with the problem will read into it what you want anyway. Peoples perceptions vary on these events and one persons being involved is another persons lack of involvement and anothers leading the way. I for one do not feel like I was heavily involved in the event but others may view it differently.

This article was written to say, " look at what we are trying to do in Arizona", and to give credit to Sifu Grose for his work. Although I am not associated with the VTM or HFY it seems to me that no matter what is written by them is attacked. Again stop attacking them and attack me. This is ridiculous. This article is about Sifu Grose and what he has accomplished in Arizona or is at least trying to. Instead of wringing hands and gnashing teeth why not show up and participate then write your own article.

Ths is also the talk of other forums and lists. I can't beleive how people over there are even tearing down what happened. Guess what if you don't show up you don't get a say in what happens. Instead of complaining, come and visit, hang out, be friendly and make a difference.

I am sure there are those of you out there whose hair I have set on fire. Oh well. I am sure you will write what you want go ahead but I will not repsond to any attacks, accusations, comments, questions, etc., except to say this. The next time Sifu Grose has a get together in Arizona instead of complaining about it or what is written show up and make a difference. Especially those of you in Arizona.

Also I hope that I have not offended any of my fellow authors who I have the greatest respect for I am sorry if I have but this needed to be said.

John Sterling

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Let's be honest here. The VTM is trying to slowly re-write some of the WCK history/legends. Some have seen it all before. They will only succeed if everybody is to tired, afraid or any other reason to oppose them."


***CORRECT.

Which is why I'm disturbed right now that some of the specifics concerning exactly who rewrites history and why they do it has been edited out of my previous post. This kind of "politically correct" sanitizing has no place - otherwise a certain person (or group) who constantly does this sort of "history re-write" will continue doing it. He (and they) need to be exposed. That's the only way to stop it.

I don't buy this sanitizing as being against the "no personal attacks" rule...Doesn't Marty, for example, have a right to take it "personally" when the revisionist history excludes him from being rightfully mentioned as the brainchild of the original Friendship Seminar idea?

There are numerous examples of specific people who have been harmed by the co-opting of their ideas and achievements by some very specific people...and therefore these people should lose the privilege of being shielded from the truth.

[canglong]

originally posted by martyg
Never claimed that, as the idea has been done outside of martial arts as well. What is claimed is that we did create an actual seminar and series of semianrs with the specific title "Wing Chun Friendship Seminar" or "Friendship Seminar" for short (a title we have been using since day one, just as the VTM has been using "Annual International Ving Tsun Museum Workshop" for their series), and a specific format (as detailed in the previous letter and again in this response), and they occured on three of the dates the VTM is claiming as their own in the article in question.

Moving this outside the VTM and yourself for a minute if you were to see another group use the term "Wing Chun Frienship Seminar" would you really have a legal leg to stand on. Secondly the VTM has more than one series and more than one representative.

Pvwingchun got it right, the fact that people would choose to attack this article because of the VTM' s participation shows how hard it will be for some to ever come together in the WC community and the fact that others have taken a side instead of trying to arbitrate the matter with their comments is even more telling.

[Jim Roselando]

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthr...?threadid=1561

More discussion regarding this topic!

[GungFuHillbilly]

As a whole this shows the pettiness of many of you here and your desire to tear down anything that is not of your making or doing. I beleive that just the mention of the VTM is the whole problem.

I for one don’t believe it’s petty to give credit where credit is due.

IMHO, it appears to me that a lot of people are sick of the historical revisionism that has occurred these past years. When you set yourself up as the authority in any subject, then people are going to pay very close attention to you (even more so when you fabricate the truth and market it as the Truth).

the fact that people would choose to attack this article because of the VTM' s participation shows how hard it will be for some to ever come together in the WC community and the fact that others have taken a side instead of trying to arbitrate the matter with their comments is even more telling.

When you have certain factions espousing their historical theories like it’s the Genesis story and the followers behave like religious zealots it’s difficult to believe that anyone is interested in ‘bringing the community together.’

Just my thoughts.

-GFH

[anerlich]

Pvwingchun got it right, the fact that people would choose to attack this article because of the VTM' s participation shows how hard it will be for some to ever come together in the WC community

I don't think anyone attacked the article or any of its authors, nor the fact that the VTM participated (as they should). I think most would applaud the organisers.

Rather the problem is with the incorrect statement therein, about which everyone seems to agree and no one denies, coming from Benny Meng, claiming he "led" the friendship seminars. He could admit his honest mistake - which is all it was, wasn't it?

shows how hard it will be for some to ever come together in the WC community

Personally, I think the thread below is a far better illustration of where the jealousy, immaturity, and current and future problems really lie:

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthr...?threadid=1420

I'm even quoted there without attribution ... if you guys can't even come up with decent insults on your own, you really should give up.

If Benny got out of his jealous funk for an hour or so and actually opened his complimentary copy of the book Rene sent him, he'd see he's included in the acknowledgements and dedication. And he might even enjoy it for what it is.

Ob Rodney King quote goes here ...

[ghostofwingchun]

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthr...?threadid=1561

More discussion regarding this topic!

As outsider with out baggage or alliance I can only say that I am sorry . . . but from reading what the original poster Marty wrote in his letter . . . I do not see where he Marty singles out any one person or organization for blame . . . as I am reading it he is just saying that the article is not correct in its telling of the history of the socalled Friendship Seminars . . . which seem if I am not wrong . . . and while the term is not trademarked . . . lol . . . for most people to understand as having to do with those events where he was the major organizing force behind them and not the Ving Tsun Museum. . . except in that one case. There also seems to have been other events of a similar nature that others . . . including the Ving Tsun Museum . . . organized or held. I am thinking that he Marty should be rightfully proud of his past work . . . and is entitled to be credited for it . . . and he is correct in pointing out any errors that leave out his contribution . . . I can not see any thing wrong with this . . . and this does not in any way diminish those other events or other persons or groups. I am thinking that if I was author of article I would write letter to editor myself . . . correcting history . . . giving Marty credit . . . and apologizing for over looking his contribution . . . this is win win situation I am thinking . . . it gives Marty credit and does me credit for being stand up guy . . . lol . . . of course there is another way . . . that road so often taken . . . any way this is my thinking on this matter.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Hendrik]

I am thinking that if I was author of article I would write letter to editor myself . . . correcting history . . . giving Marty credit . . . and apologizing for over looking his contribution . . . this is win win situation I am thinking .

Ghost,

I totally agree with you.

I think we can solve this issue with Love. If unity is the true believe of all of us.


(We as CMA we often pray to General Kwan and General Kwan is famous for his Chong and Yi. Chong is loyarty and Yi is doing whatever is right for others. )

and the Action of showing Love is acting with Yi which as you might already know -- Yi means Doing whatever is right for others and not for ourself"

Marty is a person of Yi, look what he is doing for his friend's family, that needs to be praise so that more will do what he is doing for others.

Writing to the editor yourself will show your courage and Yi, why not? who never makes mistakes we all just human. To be able to admitting one's mistake makes one even respected.


Peace and Harmony

[GungFuHillbilly]

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthr...?threadid=1420

Anerlich,

Thank you for sharing this. Nothing smells as bad as hypocrisy...

Perhaps they would have a 'legal leg to stand on' if Rene called the book 'Facts of Wing Chun' or should he have called it 'Mastering Kung Fu'???

-GFH

[Ultimatewingchun]

Unbelievable!!!

I'll predict right now that the HFY website forum will soon be off-limits to all those not part of their association.

Too much transparency will take away any semblence of objectivity and "unity talk" from Meng and expose too much of what the game is all about.

I think I've had about enough if this thread!