San Da take 2

[Ray Pina]

Listen Ross, I'm not you. I'm not comfortable setting up a fight for someone else. But if you want to come see my master's school, pay us a visit, I'll be very happy to bring you this Fri. Pretty please..... with a cherry on top.

[SevenStar]

Ross, I thank you for this opportunity. I'm going to train, build up some more attributes, and ask this man for a rematch at his gym. He's a great fighter. I also want to apologize to him for that ground action.

Out of curiosity, why at his gym instead of in the ring?

[lkfmdc]

Listen Ray and really try to understand what I am saying

I don't care about you one way or another. Neither positive nor negative.

I actually think I've been nice to help give you a forum to try and fight and learn something.....

Your response is to try and blame me for your outcome.... which of course you can't because like I've said several times, there were only three possible formats for a tournament with three people.... in all of them you would have had to fight Cloud.

Your other resonse was to yet again try and say that my fighters aren't what they are and take away from them....

In simple terms, unless you have success as a fighter or success as a trainer, you don't have much ground to criticize me.

I never make much of my fighting "career" but if you want to compare them I won the NY State full contact Taekwondo title two years. I also won third in the NACMAF open weight fighting in Baltimore, MD. That's at least 6 documented wins in sanctioned competition.

As a trainer, we both know very few people in the entire US have a similar record of success.

I've suggested you enter MMA because if you REALLY think that the gloves and no hitting on the ground are the difference, then in MMA you can prove me wrong and prove yourself correct...

I've even offered to get you in touch with those people...

Heck, you want a re-match with Cloud under MMA rules? I can make it happen if you are willing to travel to OH in January...

It's all on you man.... but you don't interest me in the least and the reality is you don't have any ground to criticize me or talk about me....

You got a training brother emailing me. I actualy prefer talking to him....

[SevenStar]

My main point though, is that it wasn't his conditioning, it was his attributes. How do I overcome someone 10 years younger, 20 lbs heavier who is a better athlete?

Like ST00 said... you gotta train smarter.

So, I'm back where I started. Do I try to train to match this young guys ability? Dude, he was Ivan Draggo. I'll post the video before the week is out. Or do I continue down the road that I see? How my master can beat me, a younger, tougher, faster kid who, believe it or not, can fight.

In a sense, yes, you do want to train like that. Why? you want the attributes to be as close to even as possible. I would keep with your teacher's training, but I would supplement with some strength training and cardio.

JUst for some street cred

and I got the X-ray technitians number. Date #2 tonight

Is she hot - like ming yue hot?

[FatherDog]

Look, fu(k the weight! Don't make it about that. This guy was the best fighter I have ever fought in my entire life.

The fact that the best fighter you have ever fought in your entire life is a guy with eight months of striking training pretty much validates everything that's been said about the quality of people attending your throwdowns.

[Djimbe]

Also, as far as Throwdowns, YES, they take many forms depending on who shows up and what they want to do. The ones I fought in were fights.... in that two guys with no gear went to do the same thing I just did Sat. Just, instead of me beating someone I got beat.

Don't say what something is if you're not there. Jim, maybe you went to some Philly throwdowns, maybe Maryland. I've held 4 or 5 ina row in NYC and don't disrespect the guys who got broken ribs, opened heads, ect. They didn't think that was sparring.

Dude , IF your Throwdowns produced broken Ribs ALL that tells me is that you werent wearing Proper Gear . I dont get hurt , or hurt pp unless Im getting Paid to do so . Its Irresponsible , especially since you , as Host of these things dont have Insurance for them , Im betting . However Ive seen FAR worse Injuries in Traqining . I just wouldnt be raging about my Recklessnes were I the cause of such a thing .

Ive been to QUITE a number of Throwdowns , Yould actually be suiprised . The fact that you cans seem to get that when youre Tiring out hat thats the DIFFEREENCE beteween Sparring wigh your Friends

Additionally , IF you happen to disagree with somethign I say , feel free to make that disagreement heard - HOWEVER - dont you EVER Tell me what I can and cant state , this is the second occasion that you have done so on a Message Board . The next time you do it it had not only better be Face to Face but at that level of Disrespect you had better be holding a Gun to my head . YOU do not Dictate Whom or What I am . You barely know enough about me to pick me out of a Lineup , yet you think you have me "All Figured out" , or what my Relationships are with other ppl . You do NOT , trust me in this . Please also never again compare yourself to me , as you did in your other thread . Ive NEVER come close to exerting a TENTH of my abilities or Power on you . You mistake Kindness for Weakness because I am capable of lowering my attributes to your level . Dont tell me whos Student I am And Am not - thats not for YOU to decide - Even iof I only show up once a DECADE that relationship is between ME and DBC . Not YOU . You presume FAR too much my man .

[rogue]

Have you and Ray fought before?

[Djimbe]

Have you and Ray fought before?

Hell no .

What would be the Point ?

[rogue]

Not looking for a point Djimbe, but the way you were going off on him I thought you two had some history.

Ray, What did your sifu say? Have you thought about adding a little training at a sanda gym to fix the holes in your game?

[Ray Pina]

I just came off a great awakening moment in my martial life and I'm not about to get side tracked by all this "martial art" politics.

Ross, my situation with you is that you are always dismissing my training. Your guys can fight, you can coach. My issue is I'm not sure your method can carry over into ones golden years. We can debate theories, ect. all day. Tell me what I should have done in the fight. That's fine. That's talking about the game. But if you say I suck as a fighter, then, we have to fight to prove who's right, who's wrong.

Now, like I said, I have things to work on. If you want to come to my master's place, I'll be there Fri. and so will my master. I'm sure he'd love to have you. He's more crazy about martial arts than me. Sure he'd love to see something.

Djimbe, school brother, I'm not going to drag our school stuff out here for everyone. And it's shame, because I enjoyed this place and now because of this I can't be a part of it because I never want my actions to reflect upon master purely.

I'll remind you, we did speak about that incedent in person. And perhaps maybe I said something that seniors wanted to say but were afraid because you're 400lbs. I didn't think I was being disrespectful.

And again, as for the Throwdowns, I think it is only respectful to those who showed up to fight to make sure their actions that day are not misrepresented by someone who was not there.

Djimbe, I think you are misunderstanding me. Think about my actions, think about the love of the school I have. Also, for the martial arts in general. Then you'll see my intentions came from a good place.

Now, I must move on. I just got beat by a great fighter and I need to improve myself.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I'm not scared of you at all, I do think you've got some serious issues. For example, you can't come to grips with the fact that all the fighters coming out of my gym (this year makes 10 years I've been producing fighters) are a DIRECT RESULT of me..." (Dave Ross)


***CAN'T TAKE ANYMORE OF THIS!!!

I happen to know that 10-12 years ago Dave Ross and his partner, Steve Ventura...were still doing Lama Kung fu style - because at the time they had a big space in Manhattan and we rented it a few times for some William Cheung Wing Chun seminars.

And all my suspicions about this "San Da" phenomena that Dave Ross now claims to be such a SUPER coach about were confirmed when I had a conversation this past summer with Mark Negron - who was a fighter affiliated with Ross's San Da place for a number of recent years and who now is a promoter here in the NYC area himself. (Met Mark when I went to buy some tickets to the event that Mark ran here at Gleason's gym in Brooklyn a few months ago...San Da matches...kickboxing matches...and some sambo matches).

As I said - Mark confirmed what I always suspected about Ross being some sort of San da coach "guru" - it's all done with smoke and mirrors.

Ross himself is not a fighter in any way, shape, or form...he's a clever businessman who has surrounded himself with OTHER people who have REAL skills - and spends most of his time going back-and-forth from his computer (where he spends inordinate amounts of time on the internet blowing his own horn)...and going to the workout area and shouting out some instructions to the people who are really doing 90% of the grunt work.

Had the nerve to go on a UG thread I was involved in some months ago and questioned my right to teach my wing chun students in the privacy of my own school the Catch-as-catch-can wrestling I've been learning from Tony Cecchine in addition to wing chun - since I'm one of Tony's long distance students (he's based in Chicago).

When I invited Ross to come to my school and check me out if he's so convinced I don't know what I'm doing - his response was to volunteer that his "students" fight my students with San da rules at some upcoming event at that time.

Sound like a familiar story?

[shirkers1]

the plot thickens, rogue pass the pop corn.

[lkfmdc]

Victor aka "Ultimate Wing Chun" must be smoking some serious crack if he thinks Mark Negron is a fighter, much less a NY San Da fighter....

Mark Negron has never had a fight in his life. He was an artist who was hired by us to do some designs. I'll give him his art skill, he is a pretty talented artist. He's also a pretty good con artist because after about 6 months of training with us he tried to set himself up as a trainer and a promoter....

Anyone in NYC, go to Kingsway Gym in Manhattan and watch or take Mark Negron's class. In 5 minutes tops you'll realize he doesn't have a clue.

Victor, do you think saying I studied Lama Kung Fu is an "expose"?? Pretty much everyone on this board knows that. Heck, one of the longest threads in the history of this forum is about my Lama teacher Chan Tai San. Read it and you'll also see he was a San Da instructor for the Chinese military.

Victor is pretty insecure about his "catch wrestling"... since he's here in NYC and Tony C is in Chicago, add to that the fact that Tony C claims to be seriously injured and no longer teaches, the obvious question was how long Victor trained with him...

Heck, give Ray credit, he isn't a liar in any way. He is 100% up front about what he's studied, with who and for how long.

Victor refuses to say how long he studied with Tony C, if at ALL in person. A former student of Tony C's who posts on MMA.tv says that Victor bought the video tapes and paid a fee and is now certified to teach....

All we ever asked Victor was how long he studied with Tony, the fact he ducked the question like the plague should say a lot

We also invited Victor and any of his students to the open mat MMA league we did. He claimed he was too dangerous, rattled on about some street fights he had etc etc... fine, he doesn't want to come to the open mat, that's fine...

I guess guys like Victor are attracted to guys like Mark Negron... birds of a feather

Victor, if you want to believe some silly conspiracy theory, go right ahead. Rational adults realize that good fighters don't appear out of thin air. The fact that since 1996 I've consistently produced skilled fighters isn't in question.

Hey, Ray and I have gone back and forth on here but even he admits that the guys from my gym can fight.

Hey, Ray, compared to Victor's rant, I have to say our discussion seemed like a quiet chat!!!!! LOL

Take care Ray

Take care Victor... but if you do want to put your students in any of our events they are in fact welcome

[Face2Fist]

[QUOTE=Ray Pina]I just came off a great awakening moment in my martial life and I'm not about to get side tracked by all this "martial art" politics.[QUOTE=Ray Pina]

you got beat, thats not an awakening, it happens to everyone.

[QUOTE=Ray Pina]And again, as for the Throwdowns, I think it is only respectful to those who showed up to fight to make sure their actions that day are not misrepresented by someone who was not there.[QUOTE=Ray Pina]

throwdowns, dont train you. like i have said in the past its just CMA playing UFC and Pride. a perfect example you, you had a false sense of security thinking you could go into the ring and beat everyone. again, it was the big fish little pond mentality, a big gold fish in a little pond gets thrown in a big pond with bigger fish gets chewed up.



[QUOTE=Ray Pina]Djimbe, school brother, I'm not going to drag our school stuff out here for everyone. And it's shame, because I enjoyed this place and now because of this I can't be a part of it because I never want my actions to reflect upon master purely.[QUOTE=Ray Pina]

i think you brought this upon yourself, by your comments, you'rerepresenting your style and master in this forum and by saying the things you have said in the past it does make your teacher look bad. youre a grown man and you should know better.

[Mr Punch]

The fact that the best fighter you have ever fought in your entire life is a guy with eight months of striking training pretty much validates everything that's been said about the quality of people attending your throwdowns.

That's pretty funny... but it may just have an element of truth!

I just came off a great awakening moment in my martial life and I'm not about to get side tracked by all this "martial art" politics.

Getting your ass kicked is NOT an awakening... you need to get your ass kicked more, or smoke more weed or something.

BTW, would someone with sufficent chi development blast that popcorn over here please?