Sanda/Sanshou

[SevenStar]

If it comes down to that, you are not good enough at what you do.

So, you are either better or worse than everyone you train with? nobody is equal? I find that odd... In any event, in competition, you definitely find your equals and people better than you. however, they may not be so much better that they can beat you easily; that doesn't mean they aren't good at what they do. It means that you are evenly matched. When this happens, you will run into the situation that FD described. Look at your last fight - you had YEARS of experience on that guy. hadn't he been training less than two years? but he had you outconditioned and you ended up losing. By what you are saying, since conditioning shouldn't be a deciding factor, then there is no way in hades that you shoulda lost that fight.

But what if you encountered something different? Say BJJ when it first came out. Once they got you, it was so new, so unique, you were finished before it began. Tired? It was a walk in the park for the other guy.

it was grappling. Grappling has now been covered in many forms. So has striking. You'd be hard pressed so find something so new and different that nobody had EVER seen it or anything like it...

What if I wasn't going to fight in the ring but my apponant was and he was training for this fight months out and we happened to run into each other at a night club and got into a fight outside ....... what, because he's conditioning my training should fail me? I have to lose that fight?

it might. just as your training may fail you on dec 10. You cannot predict the outcome of these things, which is why you should be looking to give yourself every advantage that you can.

If so, what good is your training? The minute you stop lifting and running it's ruined? That's terrible. That doesn't sound like martial arts to me ....... the invaders are coming ..... are you going to sharpen your blade and do sit ups?

In all reality, your training is nothing more than leverage. It's no guarantee that you will win, it's merely something to help ensure that you do.

[Face2Fist]

You can say a lot of things about me -- and you have .... about your assumed weaknesses of my training, etc. But in the end, I'm beating a lot of guys right now. Maybe they're just average Joes like you say .... but these average Joes have something you don't.... the balls to stop typing and put up. They express their technique.

You just talk. You don't do anything. That's a very easy position to take; the knower of everything who never has to prove himself.

I have lost fights in the past, including that one and only ring match. So what? Who hasn't ..... someone like you who just talks.

Me? I lose, learn, train --- never said I'm not training, just not conditioning myself like a labratory rat on a wheel -- and go for it again, go test myself.

I don't consider myself a hobbyist. I am a martial artists, that is something you bring to the dinner table as well as the toilet. I'm training even when I'm not in class.


You're saying what my stly is and isn't without having seen it. I offer and offer to show you, and you beg off.

Look in the mirror man. Start there. Because you're failing as a martial artist. You bring embarrassment to yourself and dojo without even knowing it. If you're going to talk, back it up .... don't point fingers at what others have done. That's a useless roll. We don't need you for that. The invention of google has already made you absolete.

ok, youre beating alot of guys, but you beating novice fighters not even amatures, the guys you are fighting throwdowns arent even C class fighters. you yourself arent the best figther i seen either, from the pics you have shown. so get off that i beat alot of guys, because those are MAers playing UFC or Pride.

call me out all you want, doesnt me squat to me, because your words dont bother me or your name calling, so go ahead say what you want. i m a failing martial artist say what you want i dont care, since i never made such claims of being a martial artist.

if you look at it, it bothers you when people here poke fun at you, it hurts your ego and crushes your confidence. your ego is not going to let you win, you think taking a few deep breaths and tightening your arms for a few seconds is going to conditioning you for a fight, HA!

say all you want, you have doubts that youre going to win, i m repeat myself again, which is something you do very often, you were whinning about the weight and experience the other fighter might have. for someone who is suppose to be very confident about their style and fighting skills this is the least of their matters.
but what do you expect from someone who spends most of his time talking about his style and fighting friends.

[Ray Pina]

if you look at it, it bothers you when people here poke fun at you, it hurts your ego and crushes your confidence. your ego is not going to let you win, you think taking a few deep breaths and tightening your arms for a few seconds is going to conditioning you for a fight, HA! .

I'm human. Of course it bothers me when people make fun of me. Doesn't it bother you?

The thing that really bothers me though is the people who are poking fun won't give me the opportunity to prove them wrong ....And you judge my total fighting ability by a still frame? That says a lot about you .... not to mention I'm bashing someone's face in that photo

I want you to think about these things you have said and understand I'm going into the ring next Sat. somewhat for you, and folks like you. I want you to know that. This way if something should happen, and if you have a heart, you will feel some weight of responsibility. One man is going into the ring to "win", accumalate a lot of points, maybe score a KO or TKO. Another man is going in to prove something and also see what happens when he doesn't have to worry about beind sued, letting it all out.

If there is one thing I fear about this fight, it's that for some reason I show up to fight this guy. All I want from myself is to show up calm and ready to beat someone, and that I express myself to the best of my ability without holding back.

[Ray Pina]

Your last post was spot on ... it was. Very good. I can't argue with a word of it. I'd say the same thing to one of my students.

All I can say, and I'll say this as if we were friends sitting in a dinner having this same discussion about a fight I'm having in a few weeks.

"I can't explain it. My master showed me something in Jan. that has changed my entire outlook. I now understand what we means about not going to fight someone, just go beat them.

Before, I was toughing it out, using some shielding but still waisting a lot of energy, still fighting against the guy. Now, I'm relaxed, I wait. And when the time si right, when I see I can get control, then I spring the trap.

So far it's been working for me. I do fear the ring. I had a bad experience. I felt I could beat the guy but no matter how much I hit him he was still there. He did a good job of clinching and sweeping me too. I gassed. Completely spent.

I think I'm a new man now, with a new way of going about this business we call "fighting." I can go back and try to match this man's training and conditioning, or I can keep what's been working for me and see if it will work at this level.... that's what I want to know. Can I get away with this here. Because you do feel like you get away with something -- like a crime -- when you face someone who thinks they're going to beat you (these guys don't show up so I can punch them in the face on camera) and you beat them silly, pack up, and get the hell out of dodge in under 3 minutes.

So, I know it sounds crazy, but I'm going for it. Worse case scenario is I get knocked out .... will be a new experience. Best case scenario, a gym full of people will witness this Revolution I've been experiencing the past few months.

..... want some of these cheese fries? I'm full. Want to go puff this blunt, or are you all on the Republican tip these days?"

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm not sure that you understood my "fight smarter not harder" comment Ray.

Training smarter, does not mean not having great condition. Just the opposite. It means learning skills and conditioning in the manner that provides the best result/effort ratio. ex . don't plod away on a treadmill when you should be doing sprints.

[Ray Pina]

Well, I've been surfing all summer. Now that the water's freazing and I'll only go out when its perfect, I've been swimming. More importantly I've been tree-trunk punching, stupid punching, working the clinch, ground fighting .... it's not like I'm sitting around eating Dorritos .... it's Honey BB chips but only when I get an Iron Mike Sub (chicken clutlet w/bacon and Russian Dressing).

The only thing I'd love to do before this fight but I won't get an opportunity to is to go catch a trout or two and bop their heads off with my stone. No car (bad accident) and the season is now closed.

I train differently because my aproach is different. I have more conditioning than I need to fight my fight. Not to fight his fight. But if he drags me into his fight, then he deserves to win. The swimming I'm doing is more to make my weight and just keep the body in motion.

[SevenStar]

"I can't explain it. My master showed me something in Jan. that has changed my entire outlook. I now understand what we means about not going to fight someone, just go beat them.

Before, I was toughing it out, using some shielding but still waisting a lot of energy, still fighting against the guy. Now, I'm relaxed, I wait. And when the time si right, when I see I can get control, then I spring the trap.

I'm curious now... what did he show you? If you don't wanna post it here, then PM me.

So, I know it sounds crazy, but I'm going for it. Worse case scenario is I get knocked out .... will be a new experience. Best case scenario, a gym full of people will witness this Revolution I've been experiencing the past few months.

Sounds like the attitude is right. Coincidentally though, I thought about you last night. A buddy of mine that used to train with us is in town giving a seminar at the school - look for him , he's on sherdog now - his name is mike pyle. He's training with randy Couture now, and if you watch Randy's last fight, he actually said something to the effect of "I'd like to thank mike pyle for helping me train". Don't be surprised if you see him in an upcoming season of the ultimate fighter.

Anyway, he went the route that FD, myself and others have been saying as a means of rising to the top. He started fighting locally, then moved on to bigger venues, then fought in denmark for like a year. At one of his fights, he got noticed by couture and has been training with him ever since. last night, I asked him what his training regimen was (because mike is 30 - only two years behind you) and he said that all he does is cardio and sparring. He wakes up and does cardio and strength training, then later in the day, they do cardio and sparring. He and randy train about three hours a day. That's it. And that is enough to allow them to keep up with these younger guys out there.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Im curious about the internal too, reason is because whenever i do intensive internal work, like someone would do in camp before a fight for example, but all internal... well i get fat , apart from the fact that i bulk up allover like ive got water retention, i get fat on my stomach, and i go up aroudn 4 inches in waist size.

[Ray Pina]

If you saw the pic from my last ring fight to today, you'll see I dropped well over 20lbs. I'm fit now.

What I learned was simple enough, it's a way of holding yourself up. It feels as if your body is stretching both up and down at the same time from your mid-section reagion.

Now, this in itself isn't it. It's realising that I've been walking around like a slouched monkey for 30 years. I've also learned, not from my master, but the Tao, how to seperate orgasm from ejaculation..... there is a difference, and their is a benefit. Not that I don't from time to time, but I know how to stoke the fire so to say.

So when I go fight now, I have my technique .... you need that. You also need power and you need conditioning. But I am living on another level than I was a year ago. I've been beating folks who remind me of what I used to be. I know whoever is stepping into the ring will be more than that. He will be an alpha version .... well trained, tough, conditioned and motivated.

I want to see what I can do against that. That is my aim. I don't want to condition that other way anymore. I've done it a long time. I like the way I train now. It is challenging taking internal deeper and some of the training, while not hard, isn't easy either. It's easy to say, well, we're just walking back and forth. Well, maybe the other guy is. But in my mind I'm driving off the hip, fueling my entire mass foreward .... so I do it back and forth for 20 minutes. Then I do some shielding. Maybe play ground with friends. Anything and everything.

I just don't lift and run.... I see that as a losing proposition. I know the other guy is bigger, faster and stronger ..... but he's just fighting: kicking, punching, locking. When I beat someone, they say I'm just fast and strong .... mostly they don't see how: structure, mechanics and position. That is what I invest in. Structure, mechanics and position. All of those lead to kicking, striking and locking. Those don't need to be trained as much. If you can tie the guy up, striking takes care of itself.

We're all ending the same way, very true. But how do you get there? How long can you keep it?

[Rockwood]

Ray-

Thanks for posting your thought process for us all to see. I really enjoy watching your growth and appreciate how you've pushed yourself, and continue to do so. I know it doesn't fit with how a lot of people would like you to do it, but I'm glad that you are taking your own path, and using Mr. Chan's teachings as your guiding light.

It's like an experiment, can you achieve your goals within this frame work? We'll see. But more important than that, win or lose, you are giving your all to a system, and as you refine it and grow it, this will bear fruit. Stick with it and you will get where you need to go, with some ups and downs along the way.

Thanks also for maintaining a mature attitude when some children try to troll and complain about you. f2f is like 16 years old and cowering behind his monitor rewinding ufcs over and over to try and act like he's an adult. What a joke. I think this is clear as day to anyone who reads his posts. It is nice of you to waste your time trying to talk sense to the boy though.

Take care, and follow the Road you are on to it's conclusion.

-Jess O

[Merryprankster]

In all reality, your training is nothing more than leverage

Precisely.

What we call "technique," or "skill" is nothing more than a way to maximize efficient use of attributes.

But on that note, a wise old wrestling coach, with more knowledge about life and death situations than most of us here will ever know thanks to 30 years spent in the Marine Corps, offered this advice.

Are you strong? A tired man is no longer strong.
Are you fast? A tired man is no longer fast.
Are you skilled? A tired man is a sloppy technician. (which incidentally then makes you more tired...)

His point, which will be nicely lost on several people here, is that conditioning matters.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: To enter a competition without being in shape to compete is nothing more than an ego preservation measure. It allows you to lose but keep your pride intact - "I was more skilled/better than him, but I just didn't have the gas in the tank."

It's much, much harder to train your ass off and enter the ring knowing you have done everything you could to prepare to win. When you do that, your ego is on the line. If you can prepare like its the most important thing in your life, then compete like you don't care what happens, you've got your own ego licked, and you'll be the best you can be because you'll take the risks you have to take to win.

And if self-mastery isn't the point of anything we do to try and improve ourselves, then what is the point?

[Ray Pina]

Condition matters.

However, have you seen Ocean's 11?

You need someone to carry the loot out of the hotel, just like you need condition.

But you certainly don't pay the bum who can carry a bag on his shoulder the same as the genious who plans the whole operation, the highly skilled guy who can crack the safe.

Fighting is not much different. Anyone can hit. Can you get in? Can you open the other's guy door? If you can do that, it is akin to tying the guy up and hitting him freely. You need to have condition more like a linemanfor that .... a strong, verocious burst ... then back to the huddle.

Condition.... condition... condition ..... Don't tell me you are better conditioned than an olympic swimmer. Are you afraid of him? How about of the olypic lifter who is your same wait? Well, you might be afraid of him, because you base so much of what you bring to a fight on on your ability to out push the other guy, out do everything. What if you changed the subject? What if you pull the pusher? What if you don't counter punch the puncher, rather absorb him?

Anyway, this conversation grows stale for me. Martial Artists? I see carbon copies. One family did well with their technique, taking men down and cranking or pounding them. It worked for them. Then others got wise to it. So then, same technology against same technology leads one to the gym for an edge.

Not unlike, "Ew, Picaso made millions so lets just keep copying him ... but we'll just use brighter colors to be MORE of a Picaso." Now there's a million Picaso's competing to see who can be the best Picaso .... lemmings.

I don't expect you to believe what I'm saying. Though Merry, it's not like I didn't offer you several chances before you disappeared to the West Coast ... conveniently never finding time to invite me down. If you remember, I said I'd come and you begged off busy .... but I never mentioned a date. Just said I'd come. You said you'd rather come to NYC. Then you're gone. So I can blame you more than someone reading this, calling BS, but never having the chance to see.

You blindly dismiss.

Anyway, I don't condition more for a fight. I've been fighting monthly, usually taking a fight 4 days out. I have an overall level of fitness that alows me to do what I need to do when I need to do it. The fight is over a week away. Every time whoever I'm going to fight goes for a long run, he's convincing himself this is going to be a long fight. Every time he lifts, he's conmvincing himself that extra power is going to get him through.

I'm saying it again.... I know he's better conditioned and probabaly stronger in terms of lifting dead weight .... after all, that's his specialty, were he's investing.

I put all my time into cracking safes, and I'm going to open his up wide or get KOed trying... someone will be out before I get tired.

Believe it or not. Actually, keep talking. The more words you add now are the more you'll need to eat Mon., Dec. 12, when I post a picture of the ref saving this guy.

As for you, I think I've seen your pic. Keep conditioning. I'll keep chilling. Wheneveryou want we can go for it (I have lots of friends in San Fran). You'll still be smaller and less powerfull than me, and you'll be less blood thirsty because while you're "working out" I'm increasing my love for beating someone. I think that will make this point more clear for you. What happens when the other guy doesn't look at it as a long-winded sporting event rather a bar room brawl over a girl? It aint going rounds. It's going exchanges.... 2 or 3 at the most.

[MasterKiller]

Every time whoever I'm going to fight goes for a long run, he's convincing himself this is going to be a long fight.

I just wanted to point out that nobody runs 20 miles for conditioning any more. That's old skool and out-dated. You run sprints (like ST00 said), which is more fight-oriented. Long runs are the equivalent of a 10 minute horse stance--you do it for mental conditioning, pushing yourself through the pain, etc...

Since "street" fights are quick and fast, sprints are good conditioning for them as well.

[Ray Pina]

Ali ran, sprinted, swam, sat up, pushed up and heavy bagged himself to lose 40-something pounds to face the 8-year younger Larry Holmes .... what did it do for him?

When you train that way there comes a time when you're simply out. Can't compete no longer. Look how many guys are in their 30 and 40s and saying they're too old for it? Too old? These arts were created for the older man to protect his younger wife when trouble came knocking .... who wants to hear too old?

My master is wise enough not to put himself in a position to play a game that's against him by it's mere design .... can't hit someone in the back after you turned them? That's Ba Gua's sole purpose for existing. And why shouldn't you be allowed? The other guy felt alright about punching at you. If he's turned, he's turned. He shouldn't be so agressive. He needs to pay for his mistake.

But I degress. My master at 65 still puts a serious hurting on me. Clocked me good twice last night... and I seriously tried to stop one of them for sure. Don't even remember the other... just feeling it. This is different. This is martial arts. The two men ontop of the hill type of thing.

I am adamant about it because I'm like Peter, I'm blessed to have seen so it's not belief for me, it's real life experience. I've seen judo guys, young, prime of their life Thai Boxers come,. Gracie students.... I've seen pretty much everything come and be dealt with politely by my master. He never has to beat them bad. He shows them power, then puts his fist in their face and they stop. Only one, a teacher in DC with 3 Thai schools, had the confidence in himself to post that the old man is good. I know of one pretty well known guy who walked away with slouched arms asking, "Was that Dim Mak" only to write a wishy washy report on the intyernet later. Don't worry. It's been noted. It's next on my list. First things first.

But do you hear this? Where does condition come into play? It comes into play in the ring and in the cage but only because it is guys thinking like this who bring it their. That is an empty space, only what you bring is in there.

I have proven to myself that I can fight. That's not an issue any more. I'd love to fight these type of guys out of the ring, with no gear..... so I need to create a reason.

So I take a risk and enter an event that is set up differently than I would ultimately choose. But that is not me looking for a backdoor excuse if defeat should find me.

Maybe the other guy has a big jacket and I have on gloves? Maybe I'm injured somehow or sick. Maybe I find myself in a ring with a pillow on my hands and head ..... fine. But all of these things are things that have, will or could present themself on MY PATH.

Last time I was wondering around lost .... half on my path, half on this other being proposed. I don't have all of my master's technique. Funny, sometimes before a fight I stay away from him because I don't want to see how little I know. But I know I have enough to pull off my mission if I arrive calm and focused.

In the end, there's no pressure on me. I'm a taiji guy. But to be a San Da guy and get beat in your ring .... he better be running and lifting and eating his fruity supplements like Spike TV tells him he should.

[Face2Fist]

ray

here's a question for you

does your master, know you post here? and does he read what you post? because if he did, i dont think he would approve of your comments.

and as for calling me out, go ahead call me out all you want. i dont care for it, and i get nothing from it, so enjoy and good luck.