Some research notes concerning Tang Lang

[Sal Canzonieri]

here's notes/info I got from Ilya, who did a load of research on tang lang mantis, translating many books into english from chinese that were never published before:

It is impossible to tell exactly when Wang Lang lived but there are two main periods of Chinese history which are most commonly said to be the time when Wang Lang developed Praying Mantis Boxing: Song (960-1279) Dynasty and the end of Ming (1368-1644), beginning of Qing (1644-1911) Dynasties. However, most likely, Wang Lang lived (if he ever existed) at the beginning of the Northern Song Dynasty (969-1126) dynasties, primarily because of the existence of one source, independent from Praying Mantis Boxing traditional history. This source is two books that survived the fire when Shao Lin monastery was burned down by Chinese militarists (warlords) in 1928. The first is "Records of Shao Lin Monastery" and the second is "Records about Shao Lin Boxing". Both books contain the same data about significant events which took place in the monastery at the beginning of Song Dynasty.

It is said in the "Records of Shao Lin monastery": "...The Supreme monk of Shao Lin monastery Fu Ju invited eighteen masters of eighteen schools of martial arts to visit Shao Lin monastery in order to perform their skills and to teach Shao Lin monks for three years, to absorb the best from each master and combine this experience into manuals about Shao Lin Boxing..." In the hand written copy of the "Records about Shao Lin Boxing" it is said: "...During the Song Dynasty the abbot of the monastery was the great monk Fu Ju, his virtue was high and his reputation significant, he perceived Buddha, martial arts, medicine and literary culture, his name was known everywhere between the borders of the Heaven and the Seas. In order to improve the martial skills of the monks' brotherhood, he invited great masters of eighteen martial art schools to come to Shao Shi (Shao Shi is the place were Shao Lin monastery is located).

There were two goals: the first was to teach monks the martial arts and the second was to perform their arts, to learn from each others' strong points in order to offset each others' weaknesses..." What masters and what styles of boxing did the abbot Fu Ju invite to the monastery?

In the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual (Tanglang Quanpu) recorded the late 1700s, the unknown author provides a list of masters and styles of boxing that abbot Fu Ju invited to the monastery:

1. In the beginning there was "Long-range Boxing" (Chang Quan) style of emperor Tai Zu.

2. "Through the Back" (Tongbei) boxing of Master Han Tong's considered parental.

3. Hand technique "Rap Around and Seal" (Chan Feng) of Master Zhang En is especially profound.

4. "Close-range Strikes" (Duanda) boxing of Master Ma Ji is the most remarkable.

5. It is impossible to come close to Master Huang You who knows the "Close Range Hand Techniques" (Kao Shou).

6. The technique "Blocking Hands and Following Trough Fist" (Keshou Tongquan) of Master Jin Xiang;.

7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing.

8.The "Methods of Sticking, Grabbing, and Falling" (Zhanna Diefa) of Master Yan Qing.

9. The "Short Boxing"(Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary.

10. The style "Monkey Boxing" (Hou Quan) of Master Sun Heng is also flourishing.

11.The "Cotton Fist"(Mien Quan) techniques of Master Mien Shen is lightning fast.

12. The "Throwing-Grabbing and Hard Crashing" (Shuailue Yingbeng) techniques by Master Huai De.

13.The technique of "Ducking, Leaking and Passing through the Ears" (Gunlou Guaner) of Master Tan Fang.

14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick " (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong.

15.The "Seven Postures of Continuous Fist Strikes" (Qishi Lianquan) techniques by Master Meng Su.

16. "Hand Binding and Grabbing" (Kunlu Zhenru) techniques of Master Yang Gun attack instantly.

17.The techniques of "Explosive Strikes into the Hollow Parts of the Body" (Woli Paochui) by Master Cui Lian.

18. "Praying Mantis" (Tanglang) boxing of Master Wang Lang absorbed and equalized all previous techniques.

Verifying the info from this list is the fact that One of these Shaolin monastery books provides the same list and ends it with the concluding passage, "All these were gathered and brought together by Chan (Zen) Master Fu Ju from Shaolin monastery."

[Sal Canzonieri]

The two oldest names that can be reliably proven both date back to the 1700s.

Li Bing Xiao (mid 1700s), who taught Zhao Qi Lu, who taught Lang Xue Xang, who taught a lot of people everyone knows now (Chen and Wang) that started the Mei Hua tang Lang style).

and a totally seperate line:

Jin Shi Kui (early 1700s), who taught Wei San, who taught Lin Shi Chun (who started the Six Harmony Tang Lang Style).

In case you didn't know, Jin Shi Kui, in his travels, visited Shanxi Province and taught Dai Long Beng, of XY fame, 6 harmony mantis forms (which are incorporated into Dai Fmaily XY).

No one know who taught Jin Shi Kui.

Seven Star Tang Lang is later than these two mantis styles, which was started by Li San Jian during the 1800s, 100 years later than these two Mantis styles.

[mantis108]

I am sorry that I really don't know where to begin to tackle with the supposition.

First off, if there exist a document there should be a date of which the document was made. This will state the dynastic reigning emporer's title in all its forms. Then there will be the actual incident's date. Without it, it's pretty much useless to any historic significance. So we will need to see this "surviving" documents for verification purposes.

I believe that Fu Ju is a very problematic character. Timeline wise, he is believed to be contemperary of Song Taizu and Han Tong (the Tongbei Master in the sonnet) which means it's around (960 CE). But Yan Qing and Lin Chong were supposed folk heros in the Water Margin which is based on the Xuan He incident (roughly around 1121 - 1123 CE). Fu Yu became Abbot of Shaolin around 1242 CE (I think). He also set up the Monk lineage Chart with a poem. He and possibly his peers were all going with the Fu (fortune) character designated generation much the same with the Shi character designated generation today. Before his time there is very little to go on. So I find it a bit convienant that Fu Ju exsited WAY before Fu Yu. Also how it is that an Abbot of a well known and respected temple just chose or simply "ordered" to go to Shandong (and why an "affiliated" temple of Shaolin?). That's a major demotion not to mention a disgrace IMHO!

At this point I am afraid I will have to ask the toughest questions: have you actually read the Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da? Have you read the 18 Luohan Gong Text? If you have, could you give us insights on the theorectical core? If it is really originally Shaolin as it is believed to be, then how does this knowledge in theory exist in all other "surviving" Shaolin systems, styles, and forms? Please don't tell me that Fu Ju took off with the knowledge and Shaolin temple in Henan didn't have it until it was "reintroduced" to Shaolin. How can we be sure or even argue that Shaolin never has or was exposed to this knowledge piror to the reintroduction? BTW, when would this "reintroduction" be?

I know there is a version of the manuscript existed as Shaolin Duan Da Pu which has 19 roads instead of 16. BTW, would you have a theory on the difference in number of roads? Which number is more "correct" and why?

If the monks today have no insight to the theory of formulation of the Quanpu, how could it be really "traditional"? Where is or has the traditional wisdom gone?

I am sorry, it's just incredibly "je ne sais quoi".

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

I am sorry that I really don't know where to begin to tackle with the supposition.

First off, if there exist a document there should be a date of which the document was made. This will state the dynastic reigning emporer's title in all its forms. Then there will be the actual incident's date. Without it, it's pretty much useless to any historic significance. So we will need to see this "surviving" documents for verification purposes.

I believe that Fu Ju is a very problematic character. Timeline wise, he is believed to be contemperary of Song Taizu and Han Tong (the Tongbei Master in the sonnet) which means it's around (960 CE). But Yan Qing and Lin Chong were supposed folk heros in the Water Margin which is based on the Xuan He incident (roughly around 1121 - 1123 CE). Fu Yu became Abbot of Shaolin around 1242 CE (I think). He also set up the Monk lineage Chart with a poem. He and possibly his peers were all going with the Fu (fortune) character designated generation much the same with the Shi character designated generation today. Before his time there is very little to go on. So I find it a bit convienant that Fu Ju exsited WAY before Fu Yu. Also how it is that an Abbot of a well known and respected temple just chose or simply "ordered" to go to Shandong (and why an "affiliated" temple of Shaolin?). That's a major demotion not to mention a disgrace IMHO!

At this point I am afraid I will have to ask the toughest questions: have you actually read the Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da? Have you read the 18 Luohan Gong Text? If you have, could you give us insights on the theorectical core? If it is really originally Shaolin as it is believed to be, then how does this knowledge in theory exist in all other "surviving" Shaolin systems, styles, and forms? Please don't tell me that Fu Ju took off with the knowledge and Shaolin temple in Henan didn't have it until it was "reintroduced" to Shaolin. How can we be sure or even argue that Shaolin never has or was exposed to this knowledge piror to the reintroduction? BTW, when would this "reintroduction" be?

I know there is a version of the manuscript existed as Shaolin Duan Da Pu which has 19 roads instead of 16. BTW, would you have a theory on the difference in number of roads? Which number is more "correct" and why?

If the monks today have no insight to the theory of formulation of the Quanpu, how could it be really "traditional"? Where is or has the traditional wisdom gone?

I am sorry, it's just incredibly "je ne sais quoi".

Warm regards

Mantis108

Agreed! I'm not staking claims here, just posting interesting notes I have.

These Sung Dynasty era documents, if they exist, must be examined, and their dates verified. Perhaps you need to communicate with Ilya Provatilov, who posted this information originally. If these documents are authentic, they are a major input to the history of martial arts and very important. It would be great if they are real, cause it would lay to rest this topic.

There is a major tome of Shaolin history, etc., coming out from a researcher, Dr. Meir Shahar. He's a professor at Tel Aviv University; he's written several articles on Shaolin history (published in Harvard J. of Asiatic Studies and Asia Major) and is finishing up a book on Shaolin. He covers a lot of records examined there, perhaps some answers will come of it?

In my opinion Fu Ju is from a little later than when Song Taizu and Han Tong were around (960 CE).
But that bit I wrote about him going to Shandong, well, nothing proven yet, more research is needed, that's what some people say, and that is because Shaolin in Henan was said to have been shut down again (by the Jin?). It periodically goes through phases of disintegration and revival all through it's history. Fu Ju met with people to preserve the martial arts, that is the history that the Jing Gong Shaolin branch carries in its lineage, and he had to go outside of Henan Shaolin to do it. There was a long absense of Shaolin news from that time to almost the Ming time. Dead quiet.
Why else would it be said that Jue Yuan had to work hard to revive Shaolin arts after this time period? When he got to Shaolin (during the Yuan dynasty), barely any martial arts were practiced. It didn't flower again til the Ming Dynasty.

The story that "Yan Qing and Lin Chong were supposed folk heros in the Water Margin which is based on the Xuan He incident (roughly around 1121 - 1123 CE)", well I doubt the novel has any accuracy for dating. If Fu Ju was Abbott in 1242, that is long after Yue Fei died (1141?).

Yan Qing is mentioned in Shaolin for being the founder of Mi Jong (Lost Track) Quan, so that puts him in Song dynasty,according to that story.
Lin Chong and Liu Xing are both said to have been students of Zhou Tong, which means their art should be Fantzi or Ba Shan Fan as it was called then, and their techingues added to the 18 masters influence shold be like Yue Fei Jia Quan and indeed:
"7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing." is very much the main hand technique, the classic hooked mantis hand that is seen in many Yue Fei forms and in some Fantzi forms today.
and
"14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick " (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong." , which again is classic Fantzi quan item.
And
Ba Shan Fan/Fan Tzi, itself is said to be derived from Wen Family Boxing, of Shandong, who is also listed as one of the 18 masters":
"9. The "Short Boxing"(Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary."

No, I haven't read the actual Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da or the 18 Luohan Gong Texts, wish I had, only people's writings about them. Like I said, I am making no claims, just reporting what other's have said or written.
I don;t have a theory on the number of roads, still investigating about it.

Shaolin today has to ask local families to re-teach them Shaolin forms that have disappeared from the temple over time. Sung Tai Tzi 32 Long Fist form was one such form.
After Shaolin burned down and much of its library too, in 1928 or so, there are still working to revive themselves from this and piece together the lost information.

[libingshao]

Thank you S.C. for your detailed answers and the wealth of information you provided.

My own concern, (as if that amounts to anything). is that there is no information of any kind on there being any branch of Shaolin in Shandong. Moreover, the period of nearly 800 years of non transmission for Tanglangquan cannot be ignored.

Yet, in your theory, both the fact that there is no such information on a Shandong Shaolin nor a tradition of transmission of Tanglangquan, (in fact all known manuscripts that I have heard of say that there was no transmission), seem to deter you from saying that there was or could have been. This seems problematic from the outset. But I guess you have your reasons.

On an unrelated note:

I offer some information on some of the participants in the meeting (you have been more than generous with your research. Mine is not as extensive but may show why I have some doubt about the meeting ever taking place, regardless of it being at Henan or Shandong):

The tradition holds that the meeting of the Eighteen Champions was held at Shaolin in Henan with Fu Ju holding court over the meeting. In fact, tradition holds that Wong Long was offered a position with Tai Zhu (976-997) in his military, which he declined. (On a positive note, it is also said that such personal selection of officers by Tai Zhu was not uncommon, though I have not read of anyone refusing). So far, so good...

But, as for Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, they were supposed to be outlaws against the Song Dynasty from the early 11th century to the establishment of the Southern Song regime in 1127 about a hundred years later than the meeting at Shaolin. Perhaps they time traveled?

For further clouding of the issue we have only to look at Han Tong who defended a losing side:

"The child emperor of Later Zhou was forced to retreat. The only resistance at the court came from Han Tong 韓通 who died and was buried with great honors by Zhao Kuangyin". (who later became emperor Tai Zhu)before the meeting at Shaolin could have taken place. Perhaps he came back from the dead...?

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...ong-event.html

The tradition of the meeting is intriguing but the more one looks at it, the more it seems just a tradition.

You mention other reserach that is under way by others. I would greatly appreciate your sharing if you find that they have published. Though we may disagree on methods or theories please know that I have great regard for your work in gathering information. You seem to have many good sources.

Libingshao

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thank you S.C. for your detailed answers and the wealth of information you provided.

My own concern, (as if that amounts to anything). is that there is no information of any kind on there being any branch of Shaolin in Shandong. Moreover, the period of nearly 800 years of non transmission for Tanglangquan cannot be ignored.

Yet, in your theory, both the fact that there is no such information on a Shandong Shaolin nor a tradition of transmission of Tanglangquan, (in fact all known manuscripts that I have heard of say that there was no transmission), seem to deter you from saying that there was or could have been. This seems problematic from the outset. But I guess you have your reasons.

On an unrelated note:

I offer some information on some of the participants in the meeting (you have been more than generous with your research. Mine is not as extensive but may show why I have some doubt about the meeting ever taking place, regardless of it being at Henan or Shandong):

The tradition holds that the meeting of the Eighteen Champions was held at Shaolin in Henan with Fu Ju holding court over the meeting. In fact, tradition holds that Wong Long was offered a position with Tai Zhu (976-997) in his military, which he declined. (On a positive note, it is also said that such personal selection of officers by Tai Zhu was not uncommon, though I have not read of anyone refusing). So far, so good...

But, as for Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, they were supposed to be outlaws against the Song Dynasty from the early 11th century to the establishment of the Southern Song regime in 1127 about a hundred years later than the meeting at Shaolin. Perhaps they time traveled?

For further clouding of the issue we have only to look at Han Tong who defended a losing side:

"The child emperor of Later Zhou was forced to retreat. The only resistance at the court came from Han Tong 韓通 who died and was buried with great honors by Zhao Kuangyin". (who later became emperor Tai Zhu)before the meeting at Shaolin could have taken place. Perhaps he came back from the dead...?

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...ong-event.html

The tradition of the meeting is intriguing but the more one looks at it, the more it seems just a tradition.

You mention other reserach that is under way by others. I would greatly appreciate your sharing if you find that they have published. Though we may disagree on methods or theories please know that I have great regard for your work in gathering information. You seem to have many good sources.

Libingshao

Oh, I see ok, I think half the trouble is just typing out things as they are spewing from my head and not having the time to fully articulate, as I would instead do if we were speaking face to face.
I'm not saying I believe anything yet, just reporting what I have read or heard.

If we really look at this list of masters, the first two don't have to be there to have been an influence on N . Mantis.

Equally I have heard that Wang Lang learned Sung Tai Tzu from his father, so could be why it is said to be the base, hence being called "in the beginning there was".
Han Tong Tong Bei is "considered parental" also leaves it open that it is a root style, not necessarily that he was there face to face. I doubt Emperor Tai Tzu was there face to face either (how would he have the time!).

Also, no time frame is given, so maybe these masters came and went over a span of time, not at one meeting. I think it is really a list of Sung Dynasty masters/styles and that their ideas were incorporated by Fu Ju and others into something new.
WHICH people took to mean that there was a full on meeting and then legends arose about it.

It's not just for Mantis transmission that there is 800 years of data missing, its' also for most other styles with roots from Sung Dynasty and before (Shaolin Lohan, Chuai Jiao, Ba Fan Shan, Yueh Fei Jia Quan, Cha Quan, Hua Quan, Wah Quan, and lots more, all have this big gap from that time unaccounted for.

Between the Jin invasion during the Sung (and Sung house moving south) and the Yuan dynasty Mongols soon after, there was lots of war time and lots of moving around and lots of hiding out. Many temples were burned down, between the invaders and the big fights between Daoists and Buddhists, there was lots of turmoil.

About Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, where is it "supposed" to be that they were outlaws during that time period? If its only said in the Water Margin book, well that's a fictional novel, I don't count what that novel says really. Chinese novels are long known for recreating history to make the story better or to make political comments less overt.

Lin Chong and Liu Xing are both said to have been students of Zhou Tong, which places them during the late 1000s, early 1100s, but younger than Yue Fei.
Yueh Fei died in 1141.

What's not fitting in is the "tradition" about when Fu Ju did things.
Late 900s or 1100s? Almost a 100 years in there.

[mantis108]

Agreed! I'm not staking claims here, just posting interesting notes I have.

Thanks for the clarification. This discussion is really interesting.

These Sung Dynasty era documents, if they exist, must be examined, and their dates verified. Perhaps you need to communicate with Ilya Provatilov, who posted this information originally. If these documents are authentic, they are a major input to the history of martial arts and very important. It would be great if they are real, cause it would lay to rest this topic.

Well, I do communicate with Shifu Profatilov from time to time. He's quite a busy man to get a hold of. Recently he's been to Hai Yang, Shandong, the home town of Liang Xuexiang (the progenitor of Greater Meihwa Line) and Sun Yuanchang (the progenitor of my line). So more findings to look forward to from him.

There is a major tome of Shaolin history, etc., coming out from a researcher, Dr. Meir Shahar. He's a professor at Tel Aviv University; he's written several articles on Shaolin history (published in Harvard J. of Asiatic Studies and Asia Major) and is finishing up a book on Shaolin. He covers a lot of records examined there, perhaps some answers will come of it?

This would be great news. Thanks for the heads up. I look forward to it's release.

In my opinion Fu Ju is from a little later than when Song Taizu and Han Tong were around (960 CE).
But that bit I wrote about him going to Shandong, well, nothing proven yet, more research is needed, that's what some people say, and that is because Shaolin in Henan was said to have been shut down again (by the Jin?). It periodically goes through phases of disintegration and revival all through it's history. Fu Ju met with people to preserve the martial arts, that is the history that the Jing Gong Shaolin branch carries in its lineage, and he had to go outside of Henan Shaolin to do it. There was a long absense of Shaolin news from that time to almost the Ming time. Dead quiet.

I think Li Bingxiao (the forum member here) gave a great link on the history part concerning Taizu and Han Tong.

Now, if the temple was shut down and (therefore forcing) Fu Ju left to Shandong, why would Fu Ju's only achievement as an Abbot is preserving MA? I mean isn't he a Buddhism monk first and foremost? Shouldn't his responsibility and priority be Buddist study rather that MA? Shouldn't he be worrying more about re establish the status of Shaolin in Henan rather than thinking about a tournament of sort? It's the same arguement many used to disprove Bodhidharma's practicing and teaching MA.

Why else would it be said that Jue Yuan had to work hard to revive Shaolin arts after this time period? When he got to Shaolin (during the Yuan dynasty), barely any martial arts were practiced. It didn't flower again til the Ming Dynasty.

Well, there's one explanation of mine that Shaolin enjoys a lot of favors from the Tong Dynasty court. It is allowed to have it's own troops. This does not have major conflict with the imperial court policy then since feudal lords were allowed to have troops. But that's the root of the problem of the imperial court. It is said that Song dynasty changed that policy for obvious reasons. All troops belongs to the central government. I don't think Shaolin would be any exception especially Song imperial court was mainly Doaist friendly. So it would be logical that MA activities become less since the troops were gone. However, Ming Dynasty's military structure was very much different. There would be local troops but it would be under the straight control of the imperial court (ie civil officiers and eunuch agents). Ming Dynasty, shaolin troops were deployed to fight the Japanese pirates as well.

The story that "Yan Qing and Lin Chong were supposed folk heros in the Water Margin which is based on the Xuan He incident (roughly around 1121 - 1123 CE)", well I doubt the novel has any accuracy for dating. If Fu Ju was Abbott in 1242, that is long after Yue Fei died (1141?).

I believe it has to be cleared that Fu Ju and Fu Yu are not the same person at all. Fu Ju is possibly ficticous. Fu Yu was a real person.

Yan Qing is mentioned in Shaolin for being the founder of Mi Jong (Lost Track) Quan, so that puts him in Song dynasty,according to that story.

The Yan (swallow) Qing in "water Margin" is another interesting charater. There is one version of the manuscript that has a Yan (color/face) Qing although they are both seemed to be the same at least in what they have to offer (Nian Na Die Fa which bascially is Chin Na skill). BTW, most version today used Yan (swallow) Qing as in the novel. So... My friend, who took Fanzi showed me a form called Qi Bu Quan (seven steps fist) otherwise know as Yan Qing Fan, does have some interesting elements similar to Mantis but it is not too Chin Na oriented.

Lin Chong and Liu Xing are both said to have been students of Zhou Tong, which means their art should be Fantzi or Ba Shan Fan as it was called then, and their techingues added to the 18 masters influence shold be like Yue Fei Jia Quan

Umm... this is new to me. So...

and indeed:
"7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing." is very much the main hand technique, the classic hooked mantis hand that is seen in many Yue Fei forms and in some Fantzi forms today.

Again according to my friend, Fanzi doesn't actually spent time on grappling. It does not even try to block. It is a strike oriented, dynamic and explosive in nature.

and
"14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick " (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong." , which again is classic Fantzi quan item.
And
Ba Shan Fan/Fan Tzi, itself is said to be derived from Wen Family Boxing, of Shandong, who is also listed as one of the 18 masters":
"9. The "Short Boxing"(Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary."

I am not sure about this. So no comment.

No, I haven't read the actual Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da or the 18 Luohan Gong Texts, wish I had, only people's writings about them. Like I said, I am making no claims, just reporting what other's have said or written.
I don;t have a theory on the number of roads, still investigating about it.

Thank you for clarification. I appreciate that.

Shaolin today has to ask local families to re-teach them Shaolin forms that have disappeared from the temple over time. Sung Tai Tzi 32 Long Fist form was one such form.
After Shaolin burned down and much of its library too, in 1928 or so, there are still working to revive themselves from this and piece together the lost information.

Thanks for the info. This will not be an easy task and I hope this time they will keep better records of who teach what to whom. Otherwise in another hundred year, we will have not problem for the future generations to investigate.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[libingshao]

About Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, where is it "supposed" to be that they were outlaws during that time period? If its only said in the Water Margin book, well that's a fictional novel, I don't count what that novel says really. Chinese novels are long known for recreating history to make the story better or to make political comments less overt.

Mr. Canzonieri,

The name Mizong, I have been told, came about because his style originally had the name Yan Qing Quan but his followers wanted to throw his government pursuers off the track so to speak so they called it "lost track". Hence, though I also do not hold to accounting historical weight to the novel, I found this interesting and collaborating information. A great question as it has reminded me to share this also.

mantis108 thank you, I try to share what I find of value.

Libingshao

[Sal Canzonieri]

I found some info on Fu Yu, etc that contradicts the legend stuff and verifies something I guessed at (meeting of masters was not one sole event).

Martial arts scholar from Germany Uwe Schwenk has been working with documents from Shaolin that were made public in 2003.

In one of the documents translated it says:

During the reign of Emperor Li Yan (also known as Wu Zong), from 841 to 847, he decried the abolition of Buddhism and Shaolin was closed and put into disrepair. 4600 big temples and 40,000 small temples were destroyed. Monks were scattered and Shaolin martial arts were spread to nearby areas.

30 years after the ending of the abolition of Buddhism, the head of the temple, monk Fa Hua collected funds to repair Shaolin, which took 3 years. Many monks returned.

With the start of the Song dynasty, there was a revival of Buddhism and also martial arts. 1st Emperor Zhao Kwang Yin created some martial arts forms such as 36 Sectioned long fist boxing and 6 step monkey boxing. He once kept his martial arts books at Shaolin.

At the BEGINNING of the Song Dynasty, Monk FU YU became Abbott. He created the 70 character poem, represening the generations of monks at Shaolin, his line contiues there to today (currently at 38th generation).

FU YU invited best martial artists to come and share their knowledge. Three times, for a period of three years EACH TIME (which equals NINE years) knowledge was shared. The forms and techniques were recorded by the Shaolin Monks into a library that was kept in Shaolin.

During the next war, the temple was badly damaged. It was repaired during the third Buddhism revival, during Yuan dynasty Emperor Shi Zu (1260 - 1295, by Monk Yu Gong, one of the most well known Monks of the time.

--------------------------------------------

In the section on Yuan Dynasty, it says that Jue Yuan traveled through China in search of great martial art skills, after meeting Li Sou and his son, and Bai Yu Feng, they worked for 10 years on perfecting Shaolin Martial Arts.

It says that Bai Yu Feng developed the "18 Exercises of Lohan" form, from 18 moves to 72 moves to 173 moves. He collected fragments of neglected patterns and perfected them in the forms. The Lohan style would later see over 170 varient forms. He also created the Five Imitation Boxing forms.
Li Sou was skilled at the Xiao and Dan Hong boxing forms.
At the end of this dynasty, a fire raged through Shaolin and again many buildings were badly damaged.
Restoration was done during the Ming and many new building were made.

[mantis108]

Here's a Chinese timeline of Shaolin since the Northern Wei to the Republic era. I got this from a Chinese forum. Fu Yu was a person that CLEARLY around 1242 and onward. That is late Southern Song and Early Yuan. There is no entry during Song dynasty. The only explanation for that is that Song imperial court was not exactly Buddhist friendly. They were VERY into Daoism just like the Tang dynasty and perhpas even more. There seems to be evidence that the Jin were also Buddhist friendly. There is no mentioning of Jue Yuan and the 18 Luohan exercises.

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陀于寺西台建舍利塔，塔后建譯經堂。
熙平二年（517年） 洛陽永宁寺建成，十七年后毀于火。其間南天竺僧菩提達摩曾
見此寺，后入少林寺后五乳峰山洞坐禪。
正光初（520年） 跋陀弟子僧稠任少林寺主。
東魏
天平初（534-536年） 菩提達摩行化于洛河地區，圓寂后立塔于熊耳山空相寺。
北齊
乾明元年（560年） 僧稠圓寂，有《止觀法》行世。
北周
承光元年（577年） 周武帝下詔毀佛法，少林寺被廢。
大象二年（580年） 周靜帝下詔重興佛道二教。少林寺复立，更名陟岵寺。
隋
開皇元年（580年） 恢复少林寺名。
開皇中（581-600年） 隋文帝詔賜少林寺柏谷塢地一百頃。
大業十四年（618年） 天下大亂。少林寺被山賊所劫，僧徒拒之。塔院被焚，靈塔
尚存。
唐
武德四年（621年） 四月廿七日，少林寺上座善護等十三僧，聯合偽轘州司馬趙孝
宰等翻轘州城，執王世充侄王仁則歸唐有功。三日后，秦王李世民派員至寺頒賞。

武德五年（622年） 少林寺因居偽鄭之地，被廢省。
武德七年（624年） 寺僧不服減省上訴。七月，敕少林寺依舊置立。
武德八年（625年） 二月，重賜少林寺柏谷塢地四十頃，水碾一具。
咸亨中（670-674年） 高宗巡幸少林寺，御題《金字般若碑》，留幡像及施物。
弘道元年（683年） 禪宗大師法如入少林寺。九月廿五日，武則天遣武三思送金、
絹等物至少林寺，立《大唐天后御制愿文》，為亡母楊氏造功德。
嗣圣元年（684年） 高宗薨，武則天至少林寺為高宗造功德。
永昌元年（689年） 法如圓寂，立塔寺東。
開元十一年（723年） 十一月，玄宗御書碑額七字及“太宗教書”，遣一行送賜少
林寺。
開元十六年（728年） 七月十五日，少林寺立裴漼撰《皇唐嵩岳少林寺碑》。
金
金初 住持祖端立《妙色那羅延金剛神像碑》。
興定四年（1220年） 住持志隆創設“藥局”。
蒙元
稱制元年（1242年） 曹洞宗宗師万松派遣大弟子福裕住持少林寺。
稱制四年（1245年） 福裕受忽必烈之命，在少林寺作資戒大會。
定宗三年（1218年） 福裕為都僧省總統，收回佛寺237處。
憲宗八年（1258年） 忽必烈在哈喇和林主持舉行佛、道大辯論。福裕為首僧代表佛
教界參与辯論，道士敗。
中統元年（1260年） 福裕榮膺“光宗正法大禪師”，任大都大万壽寺住持，計十四
年。其間分建和林、燕薊、長安、太原、洛陽五少林。
至元十二年（1275年） 福裕圓寂，刊有《雪庭和尚語錄》行世。
皇慶元年（1312年） 謚福裕為晉國公。
泰定四年（1327年） 日本國山陰道但州正法禪寺僧邵元入華，兩年后至少林寺，住
二十一年，任書記、首座等職。
至正十一年（1361年） 三月二十六日，潁州紅巾軍至少林寺，緊那羅僧以神异阻之。

至正二十一年（1361年） 天下動亂，少林寺僧僅存二十多人。
明
洪武二年（1369年） 子嚴始住持少林，前后計十三年。
洪武二十五年（1392年） 來复撰《淳拙禪師道行之碑》，日本國沙門德始書丹。
弘治十四年（1501年） 西天梵僧受古梅住持之請，任少林寺勸緣僧。
正德五年（1510年） 文載住持少林寺，奉行《禪苑清規》，計十二年。
正德七年（1512年） 霸州農民劉氏起事，少林寺武僧奉命征伐。此年，建立雪亭。

嘉靖元年（1522年） 十一月，山東清州礦丁王堂起事，少林寺武僧奉命征伐。次年
乃敗。
嘉靖二十七年（1548年） 為武僧三奇周友立塔，敕名“天下對手，教會武僧”。
嘉靖三十一至三十三年（1552-1554年） 少林寺武僧三十多人奉命赴沿海抗擊倭寇，
英勇壯烈。
嘉靖三十二年（1553年） 柘城鹽徒師尚詔起義，少林寺武僧竺方周參等奉命征討，
十月，師尚詔伏誅。
嘉靖三十四年（1555年） 徽王府為少林寺修建牌坊，徽王朱載_書丹。次年，朱載
_因罪自殺，徽府除國。
嘉靖三十七年（1558年） 小山住持少林寺，計八年。
嘉靖四十年（1561年） 抗倭名將俞大猷至少林寺觀武，認為“真訣皆失”，選寺僧
宗擎、普從隨其學習棍法。
嘉靖四十二年（1563年） 西天梵僧弟子扁囤和尚圓寂。
嘉靖四十四年（1565年） 鄭王之子朱載堉立《混元三教九流圖》于少林寺。
隆慶間（1567-1572年） 程宗猷入少林寺習武，近十年。晚年刊《少林棍法闡宗》
等行世。
万歷二年（1574年） 常潤主持少林寺。
万歷五年（1625年） 河南巡撫程紹在少林寺觀武，作《少林觀武》詩。
万歷十六年（1588年） 創建千佛殿，貯神宗母李太后所頒續刻藏經。
万歷三十七年（1609年） 無言主持少林，計十七年。袁宏道游少林，觀武。
万歷四十一年（1613年） 杭州人陳元贇入少林寺習武。1683年東渡日本，傳少林拳
棍于日本。
万歷四十七年（1619年） 為都提舉、征戰有功万安同順、授教師本樂宗武立塔。
崇禎十一年（1638年） 登封農民李際遇起義。
崇禎十四年（1641年） 冬，李自成軍入豫，李際遇与之合軍，攻克登封縣城。
清
順治十三年（1656年） 海寬入京師，刊《五家宗派世譜定祖圖》。次年領禮部劄子，
為清代第一位住持。
康熙四十三年（1704年） 圣祖御書“寶樹芳蓮”及“少林寺”匾額，賜少林寺。
雍正十三年（1735年） 世宗御批重修少林寺，整頓少林寺門頭。乾隆初年，由河東
總督、河南巡撫王士俊主持重修少林寺，費銀九千兩。
乾隆五年（1740年） 河南巡撫雅爾圖上奏“少林寺僧徒，向以教習拳棒為名。”
乾隆十二年（1747年） 施奕簪、焦如衡編定《少林寺志》四卷，五万余字，次年刊
梓。
乾隆十五年（1750年） 九月三十日，高宗巡幸少林寺，題詩書匾，夜宿少林寺方丈
室。
道光八年（1828年） 河南道員麟慶代巡撫楊海梁祭祀嵩山時，至少林寺觀看武僧校
拳。
道光三十年（1850年） 鴉片戰爭結束，政府軍隊普遍配備火器，武術普遍民間化。
上層社會武術功能轉向健身。
咸丰四年（1854年） 王祖源入少林寺習《易筋經》，晚年刊《內功圖說》行世。
同治元年（1862年） 捻軍西征，三月至九月兩次過登封縣境。是年蝗災。
中華民國
民國初年（1911-1920年） 世局動亂，土匪蜂起，少林寺購置火器成立保衛團，當
家和尚恒林任團長。
民國四年（1915年） 民國政府教育部通令武術進入西方模式新式學校課程。
民國五年（1916年） 王云華修葺緊那羅神殿。
民國十二年（1923年） 恒林圓寂，弟子妙興繼任。吳佩孚部收編少林寺保衛團為第
一團，妙興任團長。
民國十六年（1927年） 妙興率團赴舞陽，与任應岐部交戰陣亡，保衛團武僧四散。

民國十七年（1928年） 三月十五日，國民軍石友三火燒少林寺。天王殿、大雄殿、
客堂、鐘鼓樓、藏經樓及所藏之大藏經、《少林寺志》木版、北朝石刻造像碑等皆
毀。
民國十七年（1928年） 民國政府成立中央國術館，省、市、縣通設國術館（社）。
大批民間拳師進城任教。以“增進全民健康為宗旨”。“仿舊時武科考試和近代体
育競賽，”舉行全國國術考試。武術走向競賽標准化。
民國二十年（1930年） 唐豪出版《少林武術考》。
民國二十五年（1936年） 日本武士宗道臣至少林寺學藝。回日本后，創立日本少林
寺拳法聯盟

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, in talking to others associated with Shaolin and in reading Monk Di Qian's history stuff (in Shaolin Encyclopedia) they say the Fu Yu was from 961 ad.

They say that Fu Yu is the one that brought together the various masters, over a course of 3 years.

So, what is going on, if other sources say Fu Yu is from 1242?

Can it be two different people, is one really Fu JU?

Any clues?

[Sal Canzonieri]

From Shaolin Encyclopedia, by Monk Di Qian, here's what it lists:

Part 4 the famous fighting monks in each generation

Chapter 1 the famous fighting monk in North Wei Dynasty.................118
1 Seng Chou 2 Hui Guang 3 Wu Ren 4 Zhi Gang 5 Pu Xue 6 Hong Zun
Chapter 2 the fighting monks in Sui Tang dynasty..127
7 Zhi Cao 8 Yun Zong 9 Shan Hu 10 Hu Yang 11 Pu Hui 12 Ming Song
13 Ling Ying 14 Pu Sheng 15 Dao Guang 16 Zhi Sheng 17 Zhi Xing 18 Feng
19 Man 20 Zi Huan 21 Zi Sheng 22 Kong Kong 23 Ling Yin 24 Wei Kuan
25 Yuan Jing 26 Fu Hu
Chapter 3 the fighting monks in Song Jin dynasty...151
27 Ling Qiu 28 Zhi Rui 29 Fu Ju 30 Zhi Sheng 31 Hui Wei 32 Hui Lin
33Hai Zhou 34 Hong Wen 35 Jue Ze 36 Jue Yuan 37 Qiu Yue 38 Cheng Hui
39 Zong Yin
Chapter 4 the fighting monks in Yuan dynasty.........158
40 Zong Shu 41 Fu Xing 42 Fu Zhen 43 Hui Ju 44 Hui Ding 45 Hui Jing
46 Hui Ming 47 Hui Yan 48 Hui Yuan 49 Zhi An 50 Zhi Ju 51 Pu Ming
52 Zi An 53 Zi Zhan 54 Da Zhi 55 Zhi Tai 56 Shao Yuan 57 Jin Na Luo
58 Jue Xun 59 Liao Gai 60 Jue Kui 61 Jue Ru 62 Jue li 63 Jue Xian
64 Jue Jing

[Sal Canzonieri]

Care to revive this thread?

I've since been able to read a copy of Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu book,
and not related to that I've been tracing Shaolin moves and postures as far back as I could.

The earliest martial movements from Shaolin seem to come from a series of soft and hard Qi Gong, that are composed of 108 movements.

This collection of loose techniques can be traced back to the Tang Dynasty at least, they were introduced from India (via Indian martial monks and Indian Body guards bringing scripture to and from india/shaolin) and mixed these with Chinese origin movements from Shaui Jiao and Tong Bei.

There is not one move in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan that is not found in this 108 move Qi Gong form.

This 108 Qi Gong can be done in martial art self defense mode as well.
It contains within it the movements from the classic Dragon/Tiger Qi Gong that Shaolin was known for later in time, also it contains many Monkey stepping and techniques, postures, etc later seen in Tai Tzu quan (north and south versions).

Because Tai Tzu Quan resembles this Soft hard Qi Gong so much, this Qi Gong is very much like Chen Tai Ji Quan as well.

I would say that ALL truly Shaolin created martial arts originate from this Qi Gong (which has classic movements from Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao in it). And any style or form that is NOT obviously related to it comes from an outside tradition that was later incorporated into Shaolin, but is not ORIGINALLY from Shaolin.

Such as Tang Lang.

Anyways, I am under the impression, currently, that the "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" is different Qi Gong method from this early Shaolin stuff. Although I see in this "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" that some of the postures in the 18 Luohon Gung are the same as those in many old Luohan forms that come from Shaolin originally (postures such as "Open the Window" for example).

What Tang Lang and this early Shaolin have in common though is Hong Dong Tong Bei (which is called Chang Quan there, long fist). Hong Dong Tong Bei is very similar to both Tang Lang and to the movements in the ancient soft hard qi gong.

Look at this video of Hong Dong Tong Bei practioners doing their forms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWjMF...elated&search=
Especially look at the third person, you can really see this style as a root style to tang lang.
At the same time, this Hong Dong Tong Bei is obviously a Long Fist style, not exactly like the other Tong Bei (Chi, Shi, White Ape, etc styles). But it is more like the movements and postures of Shaolin quan and this soft hard qi gong that it is like anything else.

Also, the basic Hooking (Gou), Pulling (Lou), Plucking (Cai) and Hanging (Gua) methods that are common for all Praying Mantis branches is found in the middle of this 108 soft hard qi gong.

[Redfish]

It is an interesting thread to revive. So here's a point of interest for me Sal.

In a previous post you talk about the earliest figures and mention Liang Xuexiang. You then say that Seven Star Mantis started with Li San Jian.

What evidence or clues do we have that the style 'started' with Li San Jian? I mean, as opposed to Li San Jian just being the earliest 'known' person in the Seven Star Family stories and lineage?

[Sal Canzonieri]

It is an interesting thread to revive. So here's a point of interest for me Sal.

In a previous post you talk about the earliest figures and mention Liang Xuexiang. You then say that Seven Star Mantis started with Li San Jian.

What evidence or clues do we have that the style 'started' with Li San Jian? I mean, as opposed to Li San Jian just being the earliest 'known' person in the Seven Star Family stories and lineage?

You are correct, by started, I meant merely, earliest known person, clarification.

But, who started calling it "7 Stars" first? The 7 stars is the big dipper, it represents the classic mantis posture with the front leg being out with heel down and toes up, making a "check mark" shape with the leg.

The earliest known occurance of this posture in Shaolin is again found in this soft hard qigong.

Is this posture found in the earliest known styles (song dynasty) from Shandong province? The Ditang style (non ground forms, it has lower and upper levels) of shandong is where many shandong styles are derived from. I dont think it is there. Many postures from tang lang are seen in this old Ditang style.

BUT:
It is found in Fanzi quan, which is one ancient style done in Shandong area.