The Name's of the moves in the form's

[WhiteMonkey]

Can we start a list of the names of the moves in the forms....please!!!!!!

My sifu does not give names other then straight punch, uppercut, etc..

I'm looking for the nice poetic names , like mantis catch's cicada...

does anyone know the names to a form?????

WM

sorry for the spelling typing quickly at work

[libingshao]

WM,

There are the names in Chinese on several forms on MQ forums with translations, if you are Wong hon-fun Tanglang or Chiu chi-man. If you are Taiji Tanglang you are out of luck there. And those don't have the names like "tiger washes face" or "lady crossing bridge".


Sorry not to be of more help but the names differ from branch to branch.
Libingshao

[maxiaoyao]

Note sure if interpretted your response write here, but Mei Hua Tai Ji Tang Lang has names such as "tiger washes face" and "wolf slaughters the sheep" incorporated.

There are a plethora more, though I do not have them at hand at presnt...

MXY

[libingshao]

Maxiaoyao,

I am sorry for not being clear. My point was that while those names do exist in some styles of Tanglang such as Taiji, Taijimeihua, Qixing and Meihua, the poetic naming is absent for much of Hong Kong Qixing. Also I said that most of the ones transliterated and translated on the MQ were Hong Kong Mantis Boxing.

Libingshao

[Indestructible]

So... Do you plan on shouting out the name of your movements as you cross hands in glorious battle?

[Three Harmonies]

In application I agree the names are not that important, but if you want to have a firm understanding of your lineage then it can be important.
Your teacher should have the Chuan Pu (and sorry, it IS in the HK Qixing as well).
Jake

[BeiTangLang]

"Move #3" Vs. "Wind blows up the drunken ladys shirt" That the h@ll difference does it make? Why not a standardized "Throw your arm between their legs & throw with all your might" descriptor??

IE,.....the poetic names are just another way to say "You don't really know what the names mean,.....so your knowledge is less than mine".
To which I'd have to say, "KISS MY @SS! Lets touch hands!!"



LOL!

(Playing Devils advocate of course....)

~BTL

[Young Mantis]

The poetic names do in fact exist in HK 7*. WHF may have chosen not to include them in his books to standardize the nomenclature but it is taught to us when we learn the forms and sahn sau. The names for a particular technique might also vary from branch to another.

Vance

[WhiteMonkey]

ok so.........................................can anyone list them at least for 1 form?

My sifu, couldn't care less about the names himself, this is just for my personal mantis information, so if you could help please do....

WM

[mantid1]

It is my understanding that the poetic names were developed to make remembering combinations of techniques and forms easier. The poetic name of the technique usually resembles what you are doing in the technique. This makes it much easier (at least for me) to remember the techniques than #223 or "throw your arm between your legs and throw with all of your might".

From what I understand the video technology was not that great 100 years ago. They needed something to help remember the forms and poems worked.

In some systems these poem names are also tied in with Chinese medicine, philosophy and culture. So a person who has grown up in the Chinese culture speaking the Chinese language would have a better understanding about what is going on.

The Hung Ga system is a good example of a system that ties the philosophy and culture in their poems.

For example:

"A fist separating gold" in the hung ga system are two overhanging fist executed to the side at the same time. I was taught that the fist crossing the body before the split represents the "separating" and the double over hanging fists represents the gold. Gold being metal from the five elements. Metal is heavy which represents the over hanging fists dropping from high to low.

"Kuixing Tosses up the Greaat dipper" (kuixing ti dou) This is a kicking technique.

In Chinese culture Kuixing is the god of literature. Kuixing tossing up the great Dipper (ther great bear) with his foot" is the image of this God in the Chinese culture. (I have been told)

"The Bow is in front and the arrow is behind" Would be what some styles call the hill climbing stance or bow stance. The front leg is curved like a bow and the rear leg is straight like and arrow.

"A child Bows to Buddha" (Tongzi bai fo)

This is blocking a technique coming over top with both hands together at palms above the head. The hands resemble the praying posture. This can also be a throw.

I am sure the mantis systems have these poems also. Some teachers will not teach them because of translation and cultural differences. They feel that is you do not have an understanding of the Chinese culture that the poems will sound like "Wind blows up drunken ladys skirt" and you will not get the benefit from the poems.

I feel it is the teachers responsiblility to teach the culture along with the art. That is one reason it is called an art.

Mr. 108 gave me some great info on how the numbering in Praying Mantis is related to chinese medicine and culture. He may want to give some examples, but I will leave that up to him.

If people are not interested in the culture and only the fighting they should probably just study BJJ or muay Thai. You can possibly become an effective fighter faster in these systems.

Keep up with your pursuit of the poems. It was not spoon fed to me either. But, I feel I have learned much more by having to figure it out on my own.

Have a good day

[mantis108]

I totally agreed with Mantid1. I believe the language barrier is no doubt very difficult for both the teacher and the student. Believe it or not even Chinese has problem communicating with each other. One village might even have problem dealing with another that is located side by side. This why we have some many different convention in naming stuff.

Another important thing is that Chinese naming convention traditionally tends to be more abstract. This is because Chinese worldview is organic and holistic in nature. inanimated object such as rock (mountain) has "life" and is considered a "life force" or Qi. If you have a hard time grasping this concept, then think in terms of "tenses" as in English grammar only that it is applied to an object rather than a sentence. As such the movements in the forms are pretty much treated with the same respect. One has to "read" the Quanpu (manuscripts) in a lively manner. The benefit is that one can induce from the imageries depicted in the names as it "aged" and "see" things as they meant to be. But sometimes this is very hard because it could be very broad and general. Confusion is inevitable especially without the culture background and connotations as key.

Martial arts being a subtle science and exact art, there is a need for more accurate convention. So in mantis you would have someone like WHF who started to get use the motion descriptive names rather than the poetic names. It is great for remembering the moves but it does not give any more information about the moves. Is it a heavy striking move or is it agile and soft move? Do we know how the move relates to other moves in the grand scheme of things? Can't we see which tradition that the move might have come from? This also lends to the arguement that Tanglang is Weijia (external system) just by looking at the Quanpu because it gives nothing but a series of movement. I am not judging good or bad here. It is just that I believe there are reasons that certain things are done a certain way according to tradition. Any changes would have to be well thought out before it's too late. The same goes to just called the moves by numbers. One might break the move down into 3 pieces and the next generation might think it's better to have 1 or 2 and this is ultra problematic as well.

Here is a post that I share on the MQ forum concerning numerology and Tanglang:

Numbers and maths (Shu) are very important to the Chinese. The understanding of it is also a little different. They are not purely conceptual. In terms of the number 1 to 10, they are viewed as closely related to nature or the space-time continuum. This is why in the Yijing (Classics of Change) the numbers are known as Heaven One, Earth Two, Heaven Three, Earth Four, etc... Odd numbers are denoted as Heaven and even numbers are denoted as Earth. This also prescribes the "properties" of the numbers meaning Heaven will be Yang and Earth will be Yin. This has to be clearly established and understood before going any further into the subject because what's followed is pretty much the core of the Chinese worldview and apprehension of the space-time cotinuum. What this imply is the formulation of a model of Qi which is being understood as the quintessential element of the reality.

I am not sure if this is an area of interest to you, so I will stop here. But just for reference purposes, the number 72 is a representation of the 72 Hou (seasonal notes/measurements). a Hou is 5 days. 72 Hou means 360 days which is a complete cycle (a year) of Heavenly Stemps and Earthly Branches Calendar, which is organic in nature, that is uniquely Chinese. This is why you'd see the Zhou Tien 72 being mentioned in the last line of the Ba Duan Jin Shen Fa. BTW, this is also applied in the Internal Classics of Yellow Emperor which is the mother of all Chinese medical knowledge. There is a close relationship between Classics of Change, Internal Classics of Yellow Emperor, and Kung Fu (Classical Tanglang of Liang XueXiang in particular) IMHO.

The numbers such as 2, 4, 8, 12, and 24; 6, 7, 8, and 9; etc... are all deliberate designs and are almost uniformly applied to all three fields of studies. It is way more than meets the eyes. Using the numbers only to indicate a sequence of moves is not going to give a lot of benefit to the study of Kung Fu IMHO but then to each their own.

Mantis108

[BeiTangLang]

thats one of the discussions that brought about the "being mantis108" quote I believe!

BTW guys, I wrote my post as a counterpoint for discussion, not as my actual view on the subject (hence the whol devils advocate thing).
I fully believe that the poems have a place in the learning of the system, as it pertains to each families traditions.

~BTL

[mantis108]

LOL.... Thanks

Actually, there is a poetic name for "being Mantis108" as well. It's "Tian Ma Xing Kong"(Heavenly Horse Crosses the Sky) in which Tian Ma is an alias of Tanglang.

I have to apologize that the post was written in a hurry. It's dropping down the thoughts that was on my mind and is not the most organized. The point is that Classical Tanglangquan as a pugilistic art and system, it is as internal as it can get with any other systems that makes the claim from a traditional perspective. The change in naming convention might perhaps be done for the benefit of the general public. But please don't judge a book by its cover.

Mantis108

[libingshao]

ok so.........................................can anyone list them at least for 1 form?

My sifu, couldn't care less about the names himself, this is just for my personal mantis information, so if you could help please do....

WM

WM,

Good question! In what tradition of Tanglangquan are you looking for the names? I have books on several and perhaps the names you are looking for could be there. OR...better yet...

Maybe there is someone here of your tradition who could help!

Now I am curious too.

Libingshao

[WhiteMonkey]

I study 7 star PM.........any help would be great