The problem with traditional CMA is...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Deep theory such as Ying and Yang will not make that sword swing effective or less effective.

In this we disagree.. there are many ways to swing a sword.. understanding the body's energy systems can only improve someone's use of weapons.. low level skills are purely mechanical.. high level skills are integrated with body, mind and spirit.. there in an observable difference..

Be well..

[Mutant]

I disagree that there are separate catagories for high and low level techniques; such as a punch being low-level and following jin being high level... i think that many of these same energies or 'higher level skills' exist within most all techniques, even (especially) the basics. A beginner or bad martial artist won't have much within any technique and they will all be basic, crude and low-level. All of the more advanced training is meant to fill or expand these same techniques. I am always amazed at just how much there is within a basic technique such as a punch or a grab. So much variation, so many ways to improve or expand skill, to bring higher level understanding into these techniques. Thats where they fill up and become advanced and higher level. A punch is just a way in which to connect one's body/energy to a target, there are many ways to do this, so how can the punch be 'low level' if its just and extension of everything going on within the center and right down to the root? Its all the same interconnected. TCMA and especially internal study is a great way to focus on some of these skills, but i think there is a tendency for practicioners to be so zoomed in on these training drills and details that they miss the forrest thru the trees (generalization; not all). And it is a misconception that all sportfighters are ignorant of the concepts with what you consider higher level techniques... it is much the same after one gets proficient with the technique, and i think both camps could benefit from exploring the training methods of the other. As was stated, as long as it works consistently in a challenging environment, then it is on the right track.

[Mutant]

Unfortunately, our fighting era can only last so long. When we reach to 36 years old (Mohanad Ali retired at age 36), we no longer be able to compete against those who are in their 20th.

Speak for yourself pal, i'm not going down like that...

[Ray Pina]

First off .... what Mutant said. I'm 31 and whipping the snot out of guys in their 20s and a big part of that is the way I train. I don't train to be stronger than you, faster than you or to be better conditioned than you .... I'm not relying on that. I train to manage my budget. Though my muscles may be smaller, weaker, older, I train them to all work together. So when you're fighting for position using tricep/bicep, I'm fighting for position using my leg, hip, rib, shoulder AND tricep/bicep ..... actualy, at that point it's no longer a fair fight

As for traditional .... I can't believe this argument is still going on.

WHAT'S TRADITIONAL?

The way some of these guys talk about it, to me, sounds more like antique ... in that case, they can keep traditional. I'd rather have evolution.

At the same time, these guys who throw away time tested wisdom of brains and tehcnique over sheer brawn and toughness (not that there's no technique there) will hurt themselves in the long run. Martial arts is not a sport. I won;t say kill or be killed, but it's at the very least open up the other guy's $hit real good, beating his head in, before he does it to you.

Are you the best conditioned man in the world? Can you go more rounds than everyone else?

You can bench press 300 lbs! What if we lower it to only 150lbs but as I spot you I put two fingers on the right side of the bar and press down as you press up... what happens strong man? You're $hit's ruined already...... that's the goal of TMA to me. Find a way to overcome the superior foe. The guy who is bigger, younger, faster, better conditioned. That's technique! That goes beyond you step on a scale and I step on a scale and if we are close than we can fight for a medal.

[rogue]

I don't know Ray, I don't think you can discount strength so easily. Technique is wonderful but if someone is strong and has some technique you stand a good chance of being beat. Just wondering but what is the biggest best trained fighter you've gone up against?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We have seen some Taiji, Bagua guys fought in the ring before but people just said, "That's not Taiji". "He is not using Bagua".

Therein lies the problem, the people talking are not knowledgable enough to recognize internal technique.. there are champion cage fighters (Chris Heintzman comes to mind) that credit Internal Arts for their success.. any doubts? take 'em up with Chris..

The problem of IMA is that it just takes too much time. Unfortunately, our fighting era can only last so long. When we reach to 36 years old (Mohanad Ali retired at age 36), we no longer be able to compete against those who are in their 20th.

LOL.. well, you're half right.. most MMA guys are toast in their mid thirties.. but, IMA guys fight right on through that obstacle.. IMA trains for life, not some narrow window of opportunity.. what good is it to dominate a sport for 10 years and hobble around reliving memory fragments for the next 40 years..

If your goal is a lifetime of self-defense and a wholesome life, choose a good TCMA school.. if you need 10 years of ego support MMA will do just fine

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

I don't know Ray, I don't think you can discount strength so easily. Technique is wonderful but if someone is strong and has some technique you stand a good chance of being beat. Just wondering but what is the biggest best trained fighter you've gone up against?

Of course strenght is important. So is money. I want more and more of it but can I be the richest guy? Can I compare to Bill Gates? ..... so instead I manage my budget.

I have succesfully "played", as in chi saued, with a 6'7" 400 lbs man who has been training his whole life.

As for full-on free fighting, I have recently submitted (strikes) a few heads on Bullshido who weighed in at 260+ .... right now I am the slimmest I've ever been. I'm 185.5lbs, or was last Fri. before I had a match on Sun.

To be honest, these guys were bigger and stronger than me but I had more power ..... a bawling bawl is more dense and heavier than a buller but the bullet has a better devilery system rendering its projectile more powerful. That's a way to look at it.

Lots of times I find these guys counter their own power, where the tricep gets tight (because their mind, a good portion from lifting, is trained to fight resistance) and cancels a lot of their bicep power.

My Bicep may be weaker, but I've trained the tricep to shut up and let the bicep express himself fully. This kind of idea.

[BornToKill]

I don't train to be stronger than you, faster than you or to be better conditioned than you .... I'm not relying on that.

that describes the way the ultimate fighters train, or standup styles like boxing/muay thai especially. Look at matches in thailand, they neevr rely on technique but just stand there exchanging kicks and tie up exchanging knees.

[Oso]

Have different definition on "high level skill" here.

It's "high level skill" if it works in fighting, otherwise it's "low level skill".

Do we need "deep theory" to support a "high level skill"? When you swing your six feet long sword, either your enemy's head is falling off to the ground or still attached on his neck. Deep theory such as Ying and Yang will not make that sword swing effective or less effective.

If you want to wait until you have reached to "high level skill" before you start sparring then you may find out that you may be too old and your fighting era is over.

You can't spend all your life in elementary school and refuse to graduate from it until each and every courses that you took had "A" score. If you are not talent in music then 50 years of repeating that elementary school class, you may still not be able to get a score "A". Get a "C" in music and graduate from that elementary school and move into high school and forget about your none perfect music grade and move on. There are much more important thing that are waiting for you to learn in high school, university, and graduate school.

LOL, nicely put.


glad I'm not alone in this debate.

[Mutant]

Look I didn't make up the high-level, low-level thing. My shifu, Chinese, born, raised in Beijing, like 40 years in MA, explained to me.

Did he also tell you about Santa and the Tooth-ferry? Whatever he's told you sure worked, because he's got you in a starry-eyed true believer state, which is ideal for retaining loyal students. I'm not saying he's not legit, i have no idea, but he's got you hook line and sinker thinking its all about some elite advanced techniques he's going to give you over a long time period.

Hey, I've seen real internal martial arts. It ain't no BS

Sure so have a lot of us. You just think you've privy to the selective 'real' internal and that most others have something less and don't understand; classic cult-like mentality. Not that youre in a cult, but thats the type of thinking involved.

Your right, taiji and bagua aren't really suited for the ring. It takes too long to really get results. most guys would probably be out of their prime. That being said, Taiji is really a set of principles and not moves or techniques. so we may actually have seen that in the ring and just didn't pick up on it. Taiji is formless in that it applies to movement, not technique.

I'm not very familiar with bagua, but elements of tai chi are very applicable to the ring. for example, push hands drills and skills are directly applicable to san shou.

[Mutant]

Since we're on a TCMA kick. I also study traditional Tongbei. That's all about fighting. There's only like two forms and the tradition is to learn those after you have fighting skill. There's striking, there's throws, range fighting. Kicking to the knee and groin only. Iron palm training. It's a viscious TCMA. We don't wear any silky uniforms or such. We do at least one hour of warmups and traditional conditioning before every class. Then one-hour of principles and technique. Most of the CMA you've seen are probably poorly done internal and the typical Chin Woo, Eagle Claw, Choy La Fut, Hung Gar, Wing Chun stuff. All these these arts claim to be respected and widely practiced in China, but no Chinese I've met seem to have heard of them. Maybe in Hong Kong, but not the mainland. Ask some masters in China about Wing Chun. They'll say what? Then when they realize what you're talking about, yong quan, they laugh and say it's not really a good martial art.

You are an idiot.

[Oso]

calm down, man.

I for one wasn't discounting the internal arts at all. just how a large majority of the schools in the US that promote them for something they aren't capable of.

Hell, the reason I stopped trying to promote a tai chi class is that I couldn't get anyone to stay because they came in expecting some holy tofu crap and I teach applications for the movements as well...people were like "tai chi isn't for self defense" ?????? the hell it ain't. and it doesn't take years to get the hang of it either.

I'm definitely taking a devil's advocate approach with some of my comments throughout this thread.

I didn't get good strong 'power' till after my teacher told me I HAD to learn tai chi.
At the same time I learned a little bagua and xingyi as his curriculum encompassed all three. If the mantis bug hadn't a bit me so hard I would have sought out more bagua because I felt it fit me pretty well. still might at some point as there is a pretty good bagua guy close by...but I digress.

As for the invincible Muay Tai, why can't I move in and break that supporting leg when the kick comes? Oh, against the rules, I see.

well, first you have to not get nailed with the kick...but then, to the best of my knowledge you can take the rear leg in a MT match, but I've never looked at the ruleset...Seven????

and you are assuming that your opponent can't prevent you from moving in.

it's all about dealing with the power of the full contact kick and being able to counter attack with enough power to really do something.

db, I don't know if you fought a full contact match or not....and I'm not talking about going really hard with your brothers...but there are a ton of assumptions made by people who have not done so. assuming you can just move in and take the rear leg is one of those assumptions.

how's it go? "no plan ever survives contact with the enemy"

the advantage that the mma type training has it that you immediately begin seeing the truth of that statement and it keeps you truer to your training.

that's where a lot of cma schools go wrong when trying to say that their school teaches you to fight when all they do is some slap fighting every once in a while.

ftr, i'm not trying to dis you personally.

[red5angel]

wing chuns not well respected here either.

[BornToKill]

As for the invincible Muay Tai, why can't I move in and break that supporting leg when the kick comes? Oh, against the rules, I see.

you can knee the shin as the kick is coming in or you can even kne the leg at the presure point but nobody does it for some reason.

[Mutant]

Sorry i called you an idiot, but some of that is just crazy talk. Somebody had to break it to you LOL

I mean you try to grab or hit him and it's like nothing you ever felt. I'm not talking soft either. I mean like you're gonna get your back broken or something. And the harder and faster you try the worse it ends up being for yourself. There's no secret energy or any of that crap, it's just amazing skill.

See this is the kind of assumption where i think you go wrong. How the hell do you know what anyone else has felt or experienced here? Or the quality of the people we've studied under and trained with? You think your sifu is the only one out there that can hit hard with internal? Or has cornered the market on chin na? Sure I've experienced what you describe and i bet a lot of other people who post here have as well. Big friggin deal. Now you get to figure out how to make it work. I'd like to see you or someone from your school fight full contact against the muay thai player that you smugly talk down about and see how that works out for you.

You are in a bubble with limited scope and a membrane of faulty assumptions. You just don't realise it yet.