MK - this is for you...

[SevenStar]

I wonder if it's because of the difference in the on-guard stance. CMA tends to fight from one side or the other, so you are always in position to throw the side kick.

Myabe in the case of Muay Thai, the on-guard is more squared, thus, making the side kick a slower kick because you have to turn more to throw it??????

I've alluded to that before - the teep is faster and serves pretty much the same purpose.

[SevenStar]

OK now why don't a lot of people use the side kick in muay thai? For one, many side kicks as seen in other martial arts involve skipping or sliding forward on the support leg...I was advised not to do this by the muay thai guys I've trained with, as someone could side step the kick then hit you as you are coming in, and that forward momentum from your kick is only increasing the damage done...in other words, they don't do jumping kicks for strategic reasons...

coincidentally, I was talking to one of our guys about this recently. He is a tkd black belt and skips into his kicks. It telegraphs the hell out of them and I can easily shuffle back, then lunge forward with a counter. Also, in the event that I don't want to move back, I can stand my ground an drill him. He chambers his kicks, so I can usually run him over before he gets the kick out.

OK thats all good and well, but why don't they use a side kick without hopping? I don't know for sure, but in the muay thai tournaments I am familiar with, you can only catch the dude's leg then punch once, then you must let his leg drop, granted that can be a very damaging punch, but its not like in say san shou where you get spoints for a big slam or sweep off of a kick catch...one of the great things about a side kick is it is hard to catch...so since kick catches aren't as important in muay thai as in san shou, there isn't as much that the side kick offers that the teep cannot provide...

in thai matches, you can catch the leg, then take two steps forward before you have to drop it, under ISKA rules, anyway. In thailand, you can hold the leg as long as you want. also, you can't SWEEP the support leg, but you can KICK or knee it. it the kick or knee takes him off his feet, it's still counted as a knock down.

OK so why aren't they used very much in MMA? I don't know but you also don't see as many guys trying kick catches in MMA as in san shou...

you don't see as many high kicks, either. It's inefficient to kick catch a leg kick.

[Akhilleus]

"coincidentally, I was talking to one of our guys about this recently. He is a tkd black belt and skips into his kicks. It telegraphs the hell out of them and I can easily shuffle back, then lunge forward with a counter. Also, in the event that I don't want to move back, I can stand my ground an drill him. He chambers his kicks, so I can usually run him over before he gets the kick out."

Hmmm...well when I throw it I pick my knee up first, in front, then skip forward to cover some ground...yes I have had a guy side step and rock me once...I teach people to skip forward on the kick, but i don't deny there some are inherent weaknesses to it, as with all other moves...I honestly haven't had any problems with the kicks being telegraphed, but like I said I don't really chamber them like your friend does...I think it is much harder to land that "shuffle side" kick thing Bruce Lee used to do to make the bag go way up in the air or knock a dude across the room...unless of course he is already hurt...

"you don't see as many high kicks, either. It's inefficient to kick catch a leg kick."

I agree with your point but I'm not sure I agree that it is inefficient to catch a leg kick...I think it may be more dangerous in MMA because there is a tendency to put your head down (guillotine) to avoid getting punched when you drop your hand to catch the kick, but if done correctly I don't see why it couldn't be used efficiently in MMA...

[northstar]

An earlier post in this thread reminded me of something I read about the development of some of the fancier Chinese weapons, like the hook swords. Weapons like these were developed, not because of any inherent superiority over commonly used weapons, but due to the fact that they would be more effective than expected because opponents would not be used to facing an uncommon weapon.

Another thought is regarding the notion that what doesn't work is discarded. Generally speaking, this is of course true, but if this is to work in practice the techniques must be used for some time in order to find a potential space for them in one's fighting strategy. Just because it doesn't work the first times you use it doesn't mean it's useless.

Finally, somenone here mentioned the fact that many "techniques" are actually variations of "principles". Herein lies the key to using most kung fu that I have encountered. One really trains to issue force in different angles and modes, but it is easy to mistake some of the rare applications as entities of their own, missing out on the connection with the more easily comprehendible applications.

[SevenStar]

Hmmm...well when I throw it I pick my knee up first, in front, then skip forward to cover some ground...yes I have had a guy side step and rock me once...I teach people to skip forward on the kick, but i don't deny there some are inherent weaknesses to it, as with all other moves...I honestly haven't had any problems with the kicks being telegraphed, but like I said I don't really chamber them like your friend does...I think it is much harder to land that "shuffle side" kick thing Bruce Lee used to do to make the bag go way up in the air or knock a dude across the room...unless of course he is already hurt...

I'll have him try them that way - he skips, then chambers and kicks.

I agree with your point but I'm not sure I agree that it is inefficient to catch a leg kick...I think it may be more dangerous in MMA because there is a tendency to put your head down (guillotine) to avoid getting punched when you drop your hand to catch the kick, but if done correctly I don't see why it couldn't be used efficiently in MMA...

because I don't want to drop my hand to my knee, grab it, scoop it upward...a simple leg check with a counter would serve better, IMO. I guess maybe it would depend on exactly where on the leg you're hit, though. if it's below your hand's reach, do you bend or squat to scoop the kick, or just block it?

[SevenStar]

Another thought is regarding the notion that what doesn't work is discarded. Generally speaking, this is of course true, but if this is to work in practice the techniques must be used for some time in order to find a potential space for them in one's fighting strategy. Just because it doesn't work the first times you use it doesn't mean it's useless.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. In the case of fighters in thailand, however, they have figths as often as once per week. It's not uncommon for a 21 year old there to have 90 pro fights to his credit. with so many people have so many fights, I don't think it would have been hard at all for them to determine what had'hadn't been working.

[fa_jing]

I saw a Thai guy fight on TV that used a kind of side kick and knocked his opponent down with it. It was an unpivoted kick and actually a variation of the front push kick, not dissimilar from the way Wing Chun side kicks are thrown

[norther practitioner]

I swear I've seen back kicks in some thai fights.... maybe it was K1, but to me, it is so similar to a side kick...

[SevenStar]

I've been told that the three most common kicks seen in thai boxing are the teep, roundhouse and back kick. My assumption is that if the round house misses and the kicker opts not to spin 360 degrees with a leg block, that he will just use the same leg he kicked with and fire off a back kick. I actually use a sidekick for that - I guess it would depend on how far you spun...

[SevenStar]

I saw a Thai guy fight on TV that used a kind of side kick and knocked his opponent down with it. It was an unpivoted kick and actually a variation of the front push kick, not dissimilar from the way Wing Chun side kicks are thrown

That's actually a variation of the teep that some people use. Manu Ntoh showed us that variation when he came down for a seminar.

[IronFist]

Good thread.

[Akhilleus]

I actually use a sidekick for that - I guess it would depend on how far you spun...

Yeah that's a good move...


because I don't want to drop my hand to my knee, grab it, scoop it upward...a simple leg check with a counter would serve better, IMO. I guess maybe it would depend on exactly where on the leg you're hit, though. if it's below your hand's reach, do you bend or squat to scoop the kick, or just block it?

I certainly respect your opinion that the leg check would serve better...there are plenty of things that can go wrong if you try to catch the leg kick and don't do it just right...I usually try to pin it to my leg...I also try to turn my knee in to take the kick on my hamstring, but I will pin it to my outer thigh too sometimes if i don't turn it in time...

I don't do much conditioning for my shins so I am afraid of blocking it with my shin, but a worst case senario I will still check it with my outer calf...as I alluded to earlier, I have a bad habit of catching the kick and then putting my head down when the dude swings because my hand is down...I guess the best thing to do after catching the kick would be punch him immediately of strike his shoulder ot knock him off balance...I've also seen people move into the leg kick and turn there knee out so the kick kinda slides up their leg where they catch it...

[SevenStar]

I also try to turn my knee in to take the kick on my hamstring, but I will pin it to my outer thigh too sometimes if i don't turn it in time...

why the hamstring?

I don't do much conditioning for my shins so I am afraid of blocking it with my shin, but a worst case senario I will still check it with my outer calf...

My only issue with taking it on the calf is that the hip sockets are designed to swing left and right - so if you raise straight upward to block with the calf, a hard enough kick can force that hip swing, closing your gate, leaving you open and possibly knocking you off balance. when you turn the leg outward and block with your shin, you prevent your gate from being closed.

[SevenStar]

7*, maybe I missed it, but did you go on to explain why MT doesn't use the side (all I saw was "more on that later.")

From my initial post:

Most of the techniques were preserved through oral traditions (not the tradition that red5 and his dad have) and that there is controversy about what the actual names of the original techniques are. Many thai fighters today have no clue what the old techniques were, however, some of them are basic, and included in basic thai training as they are easily useable. That goes into what I was saying about the sidekick. Traditionally, it is in mae mae, luk mai, etc. but fighters have had more success with other techniques, and consequently, there are fighters today who don't even have a clue what the sidekick is.

We've also discussed another reason in the thread - speed and purpose of the sidekick vs that of the teep.

[Akhilleus]

why the hamstring?

I think you take less damage or at least not the kind of damage that's going to make it hard for you to walk the next day, I'm not certain but think it has something to do with where you are getting kicked, but it definitely allows you to roll with the kick...

My only issue with taking it on the calf is that the hip sockets are designed to swing left and right - so if you raise straight upward to block with the calf, a hard enough kick can force that hip swing, closing your gate, leaving you open and possibly knocking you off balance. when you turn the leg outward and block with your shin, you prevent your gate from being closed.

Yeah I can see how that could happen...so maybe that isn't the best defense to a leg kick...but like I said I don't condition my shins anymore than kicking pads and sparring w/o shin guards most of the time, and niether do the students I work with, so blocking with the shin could get us hurt more than the attacker...

OK I just wrote some long stuff about countering a leg kick with another kick, but thought of a better way of wording it...In this situation, I prefer the teep to the side kick b/c I don't feel like the side kick is fast enough to counter a leg kick...even if it were, when you hit your opponent and knock them backward, their kick might be pushed a little higher than they intended (as they are leaning back) and be right at your groin...this has happened to me at least 2X when I threw a side kick and they happened to throw a leg kick and I knocked them back...so what I am wondering is do you think this could be a problem with the teep? And if so, how do you avoid this problem?