That's debatable. Guys who bench a lot aren't necessarily the hardest hitters.Originally Posted by Chief Fox
That's debatable. Guys who bench a lot aren't necessarily the hardest hitters.Originally Posted by Chief Fox
No.............he's saying that is basically what IronFist is saying. Omar is arguing that extracurricular exercises do add value to training, which is counter-point to IronFist's argument that the most efficient way to become a great fighter is to only fight all the time.Originally Posted by Chief Fox
i've seen some pretty big guys come trought our school who couldn't punch out of a paper bag. muscles do help but as with all other things, technique is the best.
A BJJ player and notorious pimp, Da Big Deezy, in the Crenshaw district tried to "raise up" and "slap a ho" ..... I impaled him with my retractible naginata. I wish there were more groundfighters in the world. They make my arsenal that much more deadly. - john takeshi
LIKE FROG IN WELL LOOKING UP AT SKY,THINKING SEE ALL WORLD. - truthman
CF - Actually, OTF was pointing out the flaw in that line of thinking.
IF - most of the people you named don't train Kung Fu either. If they did, they would practice stance training, though not to an arbitrarily large degree.
7* -- Lack of horse training doesn't explain the Muy Thai round kick, but it does explain the lack of a side kick.
Liokault - have you ever taken that kind of class? If you had you would see that I am not talking crap and that a weak horse will distract from the learning process.
I thought that Thai boxers didn't use a side kick as much because there weren't standing throws in Thai boxing (supposedly a side kick is harder to catch).Originally Posted by fa_jing
THANK YOU! Masterkiller for actually being able to .. . uh... read the context and have a little reading comprehension instead of quoting out of context entirely and MISSING THE POINT like most people seem to do to me these days.
It's called satire guys. I think there's also a formal debate term for taking your opponents argument to it's logical extremit to demonstrate it's absurdity but I can't remember what it's called at the moment.
oh...Fa Jing too.
who knows. There may even be some lurkers here who got my point.
aka: Bailewen - 白乐文
Me using Baji in a match
Me performing Dabaji and taking silver at a national comp in China (Got gold medals too but no video)
www.xiangwuhui.com
No, I have no interest in Kung Fu atall (tai chi however ), mostly because of the thinking that got this thread started.Originally Posted by fa_jing
I find your point to have flaws:
So you train horse stance so you can get through a kung fu class?: I think my analogy stands up here.
Rest periods: So if your working your legs to the max in class, plus your doing it at home (so that it becomes easy in class), where are you recovering? Do you only have one class a week?
Wouldn't the leg work in class, after a few weeks give you enough leg stamina to get through a class ok?
LOL.. really, what else did you hear?.. did you hear that he was voted Man of the Year by Kung-Fu Magizine?
You see, I wasn't getting his point after all. Sorry dude. I'll shut up now.Originally Posted by MasterKiller
Last edited by Chief Fox; 05-05-2005 at 08:54 AM. Reason: typo
Check out my wooden dummy website: http://www.woodendummyco.com/
If most people are doing this then maybe you should look at the way you write. Now I'm shutting up.Originally Posted by omarthefish
Check out my wooden dummy website: http://www.woodendummyco.com/
This is getting funny.
Its like horse vs. no horse.
If you went to any high level martial artists who has been a kung fu practitioner for many years, and you told them that ma bu has no benefit, well you would likely get laughed out of the building. Why? Because generally every high level kung fu practitioner has experienced the benefits. Its pretty simple really. I know a good sidekick to the stomach works really well, why? Because I have been sidekicked in the stomach, and I have sidekicked people in the stomach, from this first hand experience I have felt the benefits of the sidekick to stomach. Likewise I have experienced benefits from ma bu.
People who argue ma bu is no good, well simply have not experienced the benefits. They may have practiced ma bu but did not stick with it long enough to find out the benefits.
Like someone who wont eat a certain food, even though they have never tried. They say "that food does not look like it will suit me" so they go without eating it even though they do not really KNOW anything about how it tastes.
Then when they eventually do try the food they say "that is not tasting so good, I dont think I will eat that anymore" Little do they know that the food is actual good for them. It may not be to their liking so they decide to eat food that is good for them and to their liking.
Well this other food is an aquired taste and will be eaten by those who do like it and will benefit those who eat it.
Ma Bu is an effective method, it is not the only method. But you cannot denounce it because I have proof it is effective. Pretty common sense really.
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
Well it will but it will take longer. I remember that when I took TKD, we did lots and lots of wall kicks and swing kicks. At first keeping up was tough. You know what helped? Practicing more wall kicks and swing kicks at home. Then again, that class was only twice a week.Originally Posted by Liokault
The kung fu class I am talking about met up to 5 times a week. However, not everyone could make it all 5 days - I averaged 3 I think. Horse stance is something that you can practice nearly every day like long-distance running, and still make progress.
Not exactly. You're right in a way. Bench pressing is the best at developing your bench pressing ability. However, it has some carryover to similar motions. Is throwing a punch the same as bench pressing? No. But once one has the proper mechanics of a punch, the added strength gained from benching will make them punch harder. Obviously someone who benches a lot but doesn't know how to throw a punch won't be able to hit that hard.Originally Posted by omarthefish
Let me address your other examples.
Clean and Jerk - The nature of this exercise develops strength across the entire body, which is fiarly transferrable to other motions that use those muscles.
The reason horse stance doesn't fit that same description is because you're just sitting there and, as I explained before, not developing strength or anything other than endurance with your legs at a 90 degree angle (or whatever).
Kicking thai pads - develops neurological coordination (the same reason you get better at anything you practice over and over. Possible cardio benefits, too, if you do it with eough intensity.
Burpees - cardio and endurance.
Again, the difference between those two and horse stance is that with those you're actually using a motion similar to one you might use in a fight and therefore there is some carryover.
You are correct.In other words, it doesn't really say much. BUT I will give you that in a way, I agree. The primary "skill" it gives you is a good horse stance.
Correct, but you're kind of just proving my point that the only people who need horse stance training are TMAists. I never disagreed that it wasn't valuable for that type of training. My only point was that it has no real carryover into anything else, including fighting.Absolutely! That's why the atheletes at the top eschelons of the martial arts incorporating those deep stances DO train the horse stance. Mas Oyama, Chang Dong Sheng and others.
Right, but boxers do do bag work. My point was that if no one does something, it's probably of little value. Pro boxers do bag work because it is vaulable for boxing (fighting). Pro boxers also lift weights because it helps them develop power.Once again, more irrelevant comparisons. It's like saying bag works is not valuable training. Wrestlers don't, pro boxers don't, pro football players, soccer players, baseball players, etc. all don't.
What in the world do you do that requires increased endurance with your knees at a 90 degree angle? You surely don't fight in that stance.That's interesting. I didn't know about the +/- 15 degree's part. That means that it is building endurance in exactly the range of motion you need it most for many traditional martial arts. No wonder it is such a vital part of traditional training.
Ok listen. We all agree that horse stance builds endurance in that position, right? Let's suppose that in fighting you may take that position for 2 seconds (which is a very liberal estimate because if you took that position at all it would likely be for a split second, not 2 seconds). During those 2 seconds, your performance will not be any different if you regularly train horse stance for 30 seconds or for 10 minutes a day. In other words, all the endurance you've gained from all your horse stance training would not come into play unless you were in a fighting situation similar to your training conditions, where you were in a horse stance for extended periods of time. So due to the SAID principle, the only way horse stance training (for more than 30 seconds to a minute) would be valuable i a fight would be if you had a reason to hold it for long periods of time in the fight.
lol you know what I meantThat was me I think. Or at least I mentioned it in passing. There IS a specific flexibility program for it. It's called stance training.
Right. The other part of my argument was to make sure everyone knows that that's the only thing they're getting from their horse stance training.Mainly your argument is based on explaining why horse stance training is not usefull for people who don't make active use of horse stances. Well duh. For those of us who DO use these things though...we need to work on those horses.
I used to think that cuz I could do a horse stance for a while I'd be strong and able to kick harder and squat more than people who didn't, like it was some super secret form of training. I was kind of brought back into reality by some awesome people I had the privledge of meeting.
Anyway, good discussion. I have to go eat lunch.
"If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar
"I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir
<BombScare> i beat the internet
<BombScare> the end guy is hard.
Originally Posted by fa_jing
the thais have a sidekick, you'll just never see it. It was seen traditionally, and as time progressed has been phased out, as the teep is preferred. There is also a back kick, and spinning kicks...
i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter
If Muay Thai guys eat side kicks all the time, why don't more Muay Thai guys use them?Originally Posted by SevenStar
Originally Posted by fa_jing
In my longfist days we did stance training religiously. From a standpoint of fighting, I didn't think we needed it then, either. I can't deny that you get a good workout from it, though.
i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter