a parable

[dfl]

Disclaimer: the events and characters depicted herein are fictional. Any resemblance to any event or person, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

Thus I have heard:
;-)
Once upon a time there was a driver who owned a Porsche 911. He could drive it pretty much everywhere he wanted to go, swiftly and without fuss. And life was good.
Then one day he heard on the radio that 95% of the cars on the road are front-engined, and he began to worry. In a moment of panic he opened up the front hood, and found (gasp!) there was no engine there. He ran around like a headless chicken until he remembered the Porsche had its engine in the back. But the panic did not go away and the idea that he was missing something important in life began to gnaw at him. He continued to drive his Porsche but the fun went out of it.
And then he heard on the radio the even more disturbing story that "real" drivers race. Those who don't race are sissy "dry land swimmers".
He began to imagine all the insulting stares he received from the
surrounding drivers whenever he stopped at a red light. "How could I ever go out and face the V12 stopped next to me at the light" was his constant nightmare.
Then one day the idea popped into his head that he could use the empty space in the front of the Porsche to drop in a V8 engine. With both front and rear engines revving he would have a total of 14 cylinders working at once! Even a V12 wouldn't be able to beat that! So with power tools in hand he proceeded to perform the grafting of a V8 engine into the Porsche. When the dust settled, his creation looked like nothing Ferdinand Porsche ever dreamt of.
We are not sure how the car handled or whether it had maintenance issues, but the sound of 2 engines running at once was supposed to be great. The last thing we heard from our hero was he was thinking of jacking up the chassis and adding monster tires so it could go where humvees fear to tread.
The moral to this story? I'm not sure there is any.
And now we return you back to your regularly scheduled programming.
;-)

[Ernie]

great story

but the funniest part is that you considered Wing chun on the level of a 911

and that it was driving down the road of life doing just fine ,

let me edit in

once the so called 911 [ more like VW thing ]

had the nerve to leave it safe drive way were it spent most of the time practicing how to start , and go in gear and back one foot go forward 2 feet

it came up on the freeway on ramp and lacked the ability to get up to speed with the rest of the modern cars just zipping by

so our sad little Zoloft VW Thing went back to the drive way in front of it's home and made itself feel better by saying how wrong those modern cars were

and one day they will break down and how they would work so much better if they study the model T

and all the little VW things Gathered and formed groups and convinced themselves that they never needed to drive on that silly freeway

but yet they had so may oppinions about it hmmmm ?

the moral of the story is

there are always 3 sides to every story , yours, mine and the truth

sorry just couldn't help myself

back to water cooler talk on the local drive way

[yylee]

Great story Dan!

With that V14 engine, just the first gear with have enough brute strength to conqour the road. No need to learn clutching either, just floor the throttle and let go of the clutch, the 911 will run just fine.

No need to worry about maintenance, it will be a while before all 14 cylinders broke down.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie

it came up on the freeway on ramp and lacked the ability to get up to speed with the rest of the modern cars just zipping by

:

Then there is the guy who gets himself an armored car and just drives onto the freeway whether anyone is coming or not all the while saying how those drivers that are careful and wait and pick the perfect timing are just fools.

Ray

[t_niehoff]

Stories are great, and a person can find one or create one to present any "moral" they want.

Instead of stories, a more productive way to approach things is to look for evidence. In medicine, there are all kinds of "stories" about this or that remedy, this or that treatment, etc. You can trust the stories, the anecdotes, theory, etc. ("this crystal will cure my headaches") and take your chances or you can put your trust in evidence, genuinely tested results. Same with weight-loss methods, physical training methods, etc.

[reneritchie]

Hey Dan,

Happy holidays to you and yours!

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YongChun
Then there is the guy who gets himself an armored car and just drives onto the freeway whether anyone is coming or not all the while saying how those drivers that are careful and wait and pick the perfect timing are just fools.

Ray

ahhhh iron body vw thing hmmmm instead of learning how to drive and avoid damage , just make yourself a crash test dummy got it

[SAAMAG]

It's obvious people don't like being told that what they're doing is a not enough (in terms of fighting). It's not that it's a waste of time persay, but not enough for the totality of fighting. In time people learn, or they don't. It only matters to the individual.

I've kinda taken a step back to look at things as a whole, and see that people here do what they do for different reasons, some prioritize the comradery, some prioritize physical fitness, some fighting, and others enlightenment of the person (mind, body and soul). Some don't care to think about whether or not they can fight, and some simply don't want to come to the realization of it. In either case truth is truth, no matter what people think. And like I said already, it only matters to the individual.

No sense in beating a dead horse right?

My dai sihing said the other day "You're training is YOUR training, you set your pace, and how hard you train. Because when it comes down to it, you're going to be the one fighting alone, and however you trained will dictate how well you do."

Happy holidays everyone!

[Ernie]

Van,
no worries , and your right not everyone wants to fight [ though every one seems to have a oppinion on fighting ]

i for one am glad most people don't fight , be a nasty world everybody did

this is a fun thread . nice change of pace

so why not poke a the ones who take things to serious a little

[SAAMAG]

True, this is a much lighter way of having the same ol argument!

Kinda like smiling while you insult someone!! Which I sooo love to do while Im driving on the highway. People drive so stupid around the holidays.

[Ernie]

Yep you’re right again

I look at it this way, [when the time comes then you will know]

Every one has there own timing, I have seen this allot while I was training through out the years, some people are just sick and train with killer intent from jump [I have been accused of that]
Others just like going some place and being part of some thing

But then something happens, they spar a boxer or get punked or loss a fight some form of reality check kicks in and suddenly they wake up.

Like the blinders have been removed and the get honest about themselves and there training

But until then they’re just living a dream and there is nothing wrong with that, some people are lucky and get to live in a dream UN checked forever.

So it does us no good to keep ‘beating a dead horse ‘ or using a dead horse =)

Just let them be, and experience will be the teacher

All we can do is recommend they go out and get some experience.

Problem is wing Chun lineage and Sifu are very good at the David karish thing [other martial arts as well]

A lot of Sifu worship and lineage worship and fictional story worship going on

Only thing that can snap you out of that dream, is a bad experience, that causes you to evaluate thing based on you the individual

But this is the holiday season no need to wish bad experiences on anyone, go out stuff a red envelope with lucky money send it to your super sifu, get a new tattoo with yip mans face on your butt, and be merry

[AndrewS]

Parable aside- there are a few reasons this dichotomy between the fighting and non-fighting camps run so deep. Speaking as someone on the 'you've gotta fight' side, of the 'escalating progressive live drill' faction here are the reasons for my rancor towards those who worship the theory:

<'Non-fighting sorts' please note, these are the reasons you p*ss me off, not the reasons you're wrong>

1). One reasons I love fighting is its essential truth. In the moment of application, you're hit or you get hit, in control or out of control. It's real and it's true, and to claim that some contrived shell is that moment is a lie and an abomination. I think this is the core of why a number of people here speak pretty sharply about the need for fighting. To us, it is truth, and I, for one, deeply love the truth.

2). The truth is painful. To claim another thing which lacks that pain is the same truth is to discount the pain one endures and enjoys in pursuing that truth.

3). I see training as a means of imparting skills which can save your life and being. I care about the people I have taught and think that real impact, real energy are the best ways to gauge and enhance their progress. To me, to say you're teaching self-defense but never put someone under pressure is a lie which can get someone badly hurt.

Later,

Andrew

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Stories are great, and a person can find one or create one to present any "moral" they want.

Instead of stories, a more productive way to approach things is to look for evidence. In medicine, there are all kinds of "stories" about this or that remedy, this or that treatment, etc. You can trust the stories, the anecdotes, theory, etc. ("this crystal will cure my headaches") and take your chances or you can put your trust in evidence, genuinely tested results. Same with weight-loss methods, physical training methods, etc.

If you read articles in any field then you will have scientists on both sides of the fence, each making claims about how something according to their scientific proven methods studies. Both will cite hundreds of real studies to back up their claims. There is controversy about global warming, the effect of tobacco, the negative effects of drinking milk, the benefit of the war in Iraq, and thousands of other such topics.

The real world is not a simple model with a few well known factors. Fighting is the same. You can find dry land swimmers that can take out seasoned fighters because some of the former might just be tough and mentally bad guys with very short fuses, no fear of death and a hatred for all. From evidence you can only conclude something about your own performance fighting the particular type of people you fought. You can't draw a valid conclusion from that to prove that you can handle a different class of fighter or that someone else who doesn't do what you do will have worse or better results.

All one can do is report actual experiences where each experience serves as just one data point. The lifetime experiences of one individual don't add up to much and don't mean anything for anyone else and that's why ALL stories of past masters results are not given credibility by most.

There are the dryland swimmers who do forms, drills, sparring, weights, fitness etc. Then there are the real fighters who really fight. Then there are the sports fighters who fight with rules to maximum intensity within those rules against known opponents of a known skill level such as in Pride/Ulimate/K1 etc. A fourth category is people who only talk big, talk tough but don't belong to the fighter group or the sports fighter group. They are fighter wanabees who can't hang out with the big boys in Pride/Ultimate/K1/Boxing because they have little of relevance to say there. These people are bathtub swimmers and can make lots of big waves to impress the others who are in the same bathtub as them.

[old jong]

"Bathtub swimmers"!....Great!...I also know people who drink from the toilet!...(really!)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by old jong
"Bathtub swimmers"!....Great!...I also know people who drink from the toilet!...(really!)

Now we just have to relate the toilet drinkers to some type of fighter category.